No Deal or Remain?

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, Vinnie said:

Folk condemn Johnson, Farage, and Trump, but Sturgeon's drumming up a similar sort of nationalist support.  Can someone explain whats different about Sturgeon?  (Genuinely)

You need to ask? Not appealing directly to Xenophobia would be the biggest one. Can you imagine her posing in front of a poster of migrants a la Farage?

Whatever the commonalities between different strands of nationalism, Sturgeon is head and shoulders above those other ****ers in terms of basic human decency.

 

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, Vinnie said:

Sinn Fein have Westminster MP's, though they dont take their seat at Westminster.  So they do have a presence in the UK Government (Westminster) -

Nah, c’mon, really? You perhaps need to read up on the difference between the executive and the legislature.

[Vinnie]

27 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

Nah, c’mon, really? You perhaps need to read up on the difference between the executive and the legislature.

Simply making a point that what you read is open to misinterpretation.

[Vinnie]

37 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

You need to ask? Not appealing directly to Xenophobia would be the biggest one.

Whatever the commonalities between different strands of nationalism, Sturgeon is head and shoulders above those other ****ers in of basic human decency.

I agree.  Sturgeon talks about how great our people are, rather talking about how others negatively affect our people.  Its a big difference.  Like I said, I like the way Sturgeon operates.

That said, Im reasonably intelligent enough to see the difference. Not sure others will, and thats where the messiness will start.

[Teuchter]

5 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

I agree.  Sturgeon talks about how great our people are, rather talking about how others negatively affect our people.  Its a big difference.  Like I said, I like the way Sturgeon operates.

That said, Im reasonably intelligent enough to see the difference. Not sure others will, and thats where the messiness will start.

I see what you are getting at - there are plenty of paradoxes with the current outward looking variation of Scottish nationalism. If independence is won, then the next generation of nationalism will be anti European UKIP style tartan Tories.

[Teuchter]

14 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

Simply making a point that what you read is open to misinterpretation.

That point is fair enough- thought you laboured it a bit with the introduction of Sinn Fein.

[Vinnie]

Given the mess surrounding Brexit, and now Sturgeons push for a Referendum before 2022, I wonder if what folk would wish for Sturgeon to do differently from that last two referendums?  

For example, should there a 60% majority in order to define a clear mandate for independence?  Should Sturgeon be clear on whether the result is advisory, or binding? (This was questioned earlier in thread re Brexit)  Would folk expect a second vote to accept any "divorce agreement"?  Should Sturgeon be able to guarantee entry to the EU?  I have a feeling that folk have different ideas about what independence for Scotland means, in the same way that Brexiteers have different ideas about what they think Brexit should be - should Sturgeon be clear about what her vision is?  (I dont think Alex Salmond was particularly clear on the future, I was felt he wanted independence, and then he'd consider the future).   

 

[Teuchter]

On 21 October 2019 at 11:09, Vinnie said:

Given the mess surrounding Brexit, and now Sturgeons push for a Referendum before 2022, I wonder if what folk would wish for Sturgeon to do differently from that last two referendums?  

For example, should there a 60% majority in order to define a clear mandate for independence?  Should Sturgeon be clear on whether the result is advisory, or binding? (This was questioned earlier in thread re Brexit)  Would folk expect a second vote to accept any "divorce agreement"?  Should Sturgeon be able to guarantee entry to the EU?  I have a feeling that folk have different ideas about what independence for Scotland means, in the same way that Brexiteers have different ideas about what they think Brexit should be - should Sturgeon be clear about what her vision is?  (I dont think Alex Salmond was particularly clear on the future, I was felt he wanted independence, and then he'd consider the future).   

 

It is a sensible proposition, but that horse has left the stable now with the EU one being a simple nose over the line job.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

The EU entry argument is one I've never seen a good answer for. Why the hell wouldn't the EU let Scotland in? 

[Vinnie]

21 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

The EU entry argument is one I've never seen a good answer for. Why the hell wouldn't the EU let Scotland in? 

Finance?  Some could argue that until Scotland has demonstrated that it can be self sufficient without Westminster, Scotland has no financial history.  The EU has bailed out Greece, Spain and Italy.  Without a demonstratable financial history, perhaps the EU wouldnt want to take the risk on Scotland, especially if we got a bad deal?

I seem to remember that in 2014(?) the EU suggested that Membership wasnt guaranteed.  That could have been scaremongering, but I seem to recall it was the quote came from an high ranking official at one of the EUs bigger countries (Im thinking France if I remember right).  Not saying it was the EUs official stance however.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

There was no official EU stance. Germany was one country who I remember saying they'd welcome us from the start. We've a lot to offer and depending on how Brexit happens (if at all) it could help.

[Vinnie]

58 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

There was no official EU stance.

I said that.  

My concern is that silence can speak volumes.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

38 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

I said that.  

My concern is that silence can speak volumes.

You said that no-entry wasn't their official position, which was slightly different but whatever, no further argument from me for now as there's a lot to happen before we reach that point. 

[Vinnie]

3 hours ago, Teuchter said:

It is a sensible proposition, but that horse has left the stable now with the EU one being a simple nose over the line job.

I actually think that if Sturgeon set such terms, it would be a sign of leadership, and quite possibly gain her some support from those on the fence.

[Vinnie]

"When asked a series of questions about Boris Johnson’s new Brexit ‘deal’ the carefully selected cross-section of the UK public demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding as to what is actually going on.

The research discovered that almost universally, those asked thought that the ‘deal’ being examined at Westminster represented not just the terms of our withdrawal from the European Union but the entirety our future trading and political relationship with the bloc.  

When told that this was just the beginning and that Brexit itself would trigger years of detailed, high-stakes negotiations and trade talks (which could still result in no-deal) – the response was a “horrified silence”.

From the Scotsman.  I understood this, but I didnt realise that many didnt.