No Deal or Remain?

[worldwiderab]

36 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

"When asked a series of questions about Boris Johnson’s new Brexit ‘deal’ the carefully selected cross-section of the UK public demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding as to what is actually going on.

The research discovered that almost universally, those asked thought that the ‘deal’ being examined at Westminster represented not just the terms of our withdrawal from the European Union but the entirety our future trading and political relationship with the bloc.  

When told that this was just the beginning and that Brexit itself would trigger years of detailed, high-stakes negotiations and trade talks (which could still result in no-deal) – the response was a “horrified silence”.

From the Scotsman.  I understood this, but I didnt realise that many didnt.  

Vinnie, after speaking to several people about this I also found out this is true. The whole thing is a mess and it will take years to sort out.

[Teuchter]

16 hours ago, Vinnie said:

I actually think that if Sturgeon set such terms, it would be a sign of leadership, and quite possibly gain her some support from those on the fence.

It would definitely be the right and honourable thing to do, but, apart from provoking a civil war on the Independence side, I am sure that the Unionists would not be tripping over themselves to praise her. In contrast, they would paint it as a weakness.

[Teuchter]

3 hours ago, Vinnie said:

"When asked a series of questions about Boris Johnson’s new Brexit ‘deal’ the carefully selected cross-section of the UK public demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding as to what is actually going on.

The research discovered that almost universally, those asked thought that the ‘deal’ being examined at Westminster represented not just the terms of our withdrawal from the European Union but the entirety our future trading and political relationship with the bloc.  

When told that this was just the beginning and that Brexit itself would trigger years of detailed, high-stakes negotiations and trade talks (which could still result in no-deal) – the response was a “horrified silence”.

From the Scotsman.  I understood this, but I didnt realise that many didnt.  

But....but.....but Brexit means Brexit? I don’t understand. That’s what we were told. There are countless quotes from 2016 about how easy it would be.

 

[Vinnie]

30 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

It would definitely be the right and honourable thing to do, but, apart from provoking a civil war on the Independence side, 

Particularly from those that are overly Nationalist, the kind of folk that despise Trump and Farage and Johnson, but fail to see the same traits in themselves? 

There will still be some intelligent folk who carry a chip on their shoulder about being Scottish and will demand independence regardless of the consequences.  

29 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

But....but.....but Brexit means Brexit? I don’t understand. That’s what we were told. There are countless quotes from 2016 about how easy it would be.

There would still be a Brexit - so Brexit does mean Brexit.  Although I agree that the Brexit campaign exaggerated how easy it would be. 

[Digs]

21 hours ago, Vinnie said:

There would still be a Brexit - so Brexit does mean Brexit.  Although I agree that the Brexit campaign exaggerated how easy it would be. 

I prefer 'lied'.

[Vinnie]

They are politicians after all

[SanguinePar]

Most voters believe violence against MPs 'is price worth paying' over Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

We are properly f*c**d aren't we? 😞

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Majority? Nah.

Also separately, what good is another delay at this stage? It was already delayed since March after being delayed since god knows. Brexit won't ever get through parliament, call it off.

[Piracy]

On 18/10/2019 at 11:37, Teuchter said:

I see what you are getting at - there are plenty of paradoxes with the current outward looking variation of Scottish nationalism. If independence is won, then the next generation of nationalism will be anti European UKIP style tartan Tories.

It's there already. I've 2 mates whom I attend the football with. Both want an independent Scotland independent of Europe.

Within Scottish Nationalists there's always been an element of the kind of nationalism that wants us isolated and unattached from a perceived beaurocratic set up, not just Westminster but Brussels. 

Just because English nationalism is perceived to be aggressive, insular and dare I say it even mildly racist in outlook doesn't mean to say they're all like that. It also doesn't mean there aren't those supporting Scottish nationalism who couldn't fall into that category. 

Bit like some of the Scotland support claiming to be in the so called Tartan Army and who take a superior moral stance over the English support yet miss the striking parallels with just being drunken anti-social wa*kers who take over town squares, urinating and baring their ar*ses in public. 

I cannot abide the side of nationalism that gives the believer a perception that because of birth within a specific geographical location they're somehow distinctly different to those born within a different set of borders. Only real borders are in people's minds. 

The real reason the UK is in this swamp is down to people being stupid enough to be taken in by nationalist ideology, peddled by politicians and fuelled by the media. Blame Westminster, blame Brussels, blame the English, blame immigrants, blame your next door neighbour, blame anyone but us the politicians and blame anyone but ourselves. We as a society let this happen. We can't blame anyone but ourselves. Capitalism and neo-liberalism have won the day. 

We'll still be bound by this neo-liberalist political ideology within Europe away from the UK and independent within Europe (depends how you define real independence). We'd have been better working to change UK society and together trying to influence change in Europe. Trying telling Greece being part of a bullying Europe being part of this club isn't all about a supporting the capitialist system.