Will we stay or will we go?

[Teuchter]

10 minutes ago, GG Riva said:

To get back to the OP, it's anyone's guess at the moment. May keeps banging her head against a brick wall. When will she finally twig that the vast majority of MPs have no intention of supporting it? So Option 1 appears to be dead in the water. 

Most MPs are also  opposed to leaving without a deal, so where does that leave us?

We might well leave at some point, but I can't see it being any time soon. 

It is genuinely anyone’s guess. A no deal seems more likely than ever - it could happen by the clock simply running down. 

[Vinnie]

59 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

A no deal seems more likely than ever - it could happen by the clock simply running down. 

I can see May running down the clock and it looking like a No Deal.  I can see it like a game of chicken, who will flinch first, and MPs scrambling around to support Mays Deal as its marginally better than no deal at all.

What this whole scenario has taught us, though we already knew it, is that most of our politicians are self serving cretins, and not one of them is a leader, not one of them can inspire their party to back them, not one of them can inspire voters. 

With or without Europe, we need a leader who can spark an interest in politics again.

[GG Riva]

Is last night's vote likely to improve our chances of leaving with a deal? 

According to the BBC's  Laura Kuenssberg, Theresa May will continue to plough a lonely furrow, trying to sell MPs a deal they've already rejected twice, while Parliament will try to come up with their own version. This could arguably double our chances of agreeing a deal with the EU or then again, maybe not.

It so completely bizarre.....

[Vinnie]

1 hour ago, GG Riva said:

Theresa May will continue to plough a lonely furrow, trying to sell MPs a deal they've already rejected twice, while Parliament will try to come up with their own version. This could arguably double our chances of agreeing a deal with the EU or then again, maybe not.

The EU have already said there are no more negotiations to be had.  "Parliament", whoever Parliament is, making up their own Brexit deal in a few days with no input from the EU sounds like a complete waste of time, almost like someone wants to try and prove they arent a leech. 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Could have avoided all this but wait, if we had voted no, we stay in the EU! Wait...

[SanguinePar]

On 25/03/2019 at 19:22, Vinnie said:

With or without Europe, we need a leader who can spark an interest in politics again.

Actually, in that respect, I think May's done an excellent job - I feel like more and more people are focused on the issue, given her cackhanded incompetence.

 

17 hours ago, The Beer Baron said:

Could have avoided all this but wait, if we had voted no, we stay in the EU! Wait...

That was true at the time though. Voting for independence would have left us looking to get in, whereas voting no at least kept us in at the time. Who knew that the UK would be daft enough to vote Leave a couple of years later?

[SanguinePar]

Speech from Conservative MEP Richard Ashworth:

"For over 25 years no British prime minister ever explained to the British people what Europe did, what are the benefits and why it matters," he says.

"They never defended against the untruths that were spoken.

"Because of that the British press ran a 20-year campaign based on populist mistrusts, lies and deceit.

"The consequence of that in Britain is a sad nation divided like never before.

"So let Brexit stand as a cautionary tale to the people of Europe.

"You are the generation who have lived through the longest period of peace and the greatest level of prosperity ever.

"Never take it for granted - value it, fight for it, defend it every day."

Apparently not all Tories are complete idiots. Well said, that man.

[Vinnie]

1 hour ago, SanguinePar said:

Actually, in that respect, I think May's done an excellent job - I feel like more and more people are focused on the issue, given her cackhanded incompetence.

So incompetence should be welcomed? 

Interestingly, I hear more "remainers" accepting that "leave" was the result and that we should get on with it.  Any deal was never going to please everyone, its what we have.  So do we leave with the Deal that May has, or do we go leave with No Deal?  Whats preferable? 

[SanguinePar]

31 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

So incompetence should be welcomed? 

I think you missed my sarcasm - May has been a disaster from start to (surely soon?) finish. I was just saying that by being so utterly sh*te she's "spark[ed plenty of] interest  in politics again" - just not for the right reasons.

31 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

Interestingly, I hear more "remainers" accepting that "leave" was the result and that we should get on with it.  Any deal was never going to please everyone, its what we have.  So do we leave with the Deal that May has, or do we go leave with No Deal?  Whats preferable? 

Plenty of leavers go the opposite way too. Not to mention all those millions people who didn't vote first time round, who seem to be clearly in the remain camp going by this (55% would vote remain, 19% would vote leave, 25% still wouldn't vote). No deal would be a disaster. May's deal is liked by approximately nobody. The government has failed to get any plan through, and parliament has been stifled (until today, though there's no guarantee of a resolution today either.)

Why not go back to the people - now that what is being voted on is much more clearly defined than in 2016?

[Vinnie]

27 minutes ago, SanguinePar said:

Why not go back to the people - now that what is being voted on is much more clearly defined than in 2016?

Is it though?  I like to think that I have a degree of understanding, but I very much doubt that I am capable of wading through every clause and understanding the implications.  We can ask for a condensed explanation, but even then, that will depend on the agenda of the person explaining it - much like reading a blog.  

Even then, I get the impression youre an intelligent enough guy, but for every one person who might be able to understand the basics, there are five or six people who remain clueless - and you want clueless folk to re-vote? 

33 minutes ago, SanguinePar said:

Plenty of leavers go the opposite way too. Not to mention all those millions people who didn't vote first time round, who seem to be clearly in the remain camp going by this (55% would vote remain, 19% would vote leave, 25% still wouldn't vote).

Yeah, because opinion polls get it right the first time round.  Markets went through the roof on the day of the referendum, the exchange rate soared, on the back of opinion polls.  And of course, an opinion poll can be made manipulated and the demographics of the polled can reflect an agenda. 

Of course, its hypocritical to quote a poll where 25% dont want to vote, when part of your complaint (Im sure I read before) is that the referendum turnout was too low be a fair representation? 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

3 hours ago, SanguinePar said:

Actually, in that respect, I think May's done an excellent job - I feel like more and more people are focused on the issue, given her cackhanded incompetence.

 

That was true at the time though. Voting for independence would have left us looking to get in, whereas voting no at least kept us in at the time. Who knew that the UK would be daft enough to vote Leave a couple of years later?

There was nothing to suggest we wouldn't have gained entry.

[Vinnie]

1 minute ago, The Beer Baron said:

There was nothing to suggest we wouldn't have gained entry.

I think there was.  It was suggested by the EU that Scotland would have to apply and follow the same processes for acceptance as any other country wanting to join - which can take years.  I do recall that Better Together made various noises that EU membership was far from guaranteed, but that could have be put down to scare-mongering. 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Scare mongering. We were already in the EU I honestly think that given what we could offer, there would have been no problem. All ****ing noise now anyway.

[Vinnie]

7 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

Scare mongering. We were already in the EU I honestly think that given what we could offer, there would have been no problem.

What we could offer if we got a decent "divorce deal" from the UK.  Although by the same token, you could take the view that Scotland would be a new country and would need to demonstrate its value to the EU, that we wouldnt be a financial burden such as Greece has been? 

[SanguinePar]

Well, another fun day in Brexit Britain today.

MPs argue about whether they should have a right to vote on a range of Brexit outcomes, then decide they do, then have the votes (on 8 possibilities) and reject them all.

Meanwhile the PM offers to quit if people will just vote her twice rejected deal through, people who once compared it to a suicide vest suddenly decide it's a decent idea after all, then the DUP torpedoes it and (as someone on Twitter said) May turns out seemingly not to be able to even gather enough support for her own resignation.

So in the Brexit stakes, the House of Commons has now rejected Deal, No Deal, 2nd referendum, Common Market 2.0, Customs Union, EFTA, etc, etc.

I believe the next plan is to settle all disputes with Europe via a pan European episode of the Krypton Factor.

Strong and Stable!