Greta

[Teuchter]

This whole phenomenon, like Farage, like Trump is nothing but populism, albeit this time for the middle classes.

That speech yesterday was less the dignified mix of anger, hope and vision of Martin Luther King and more the unhinged ranting of 1930s despots. Just watch it again with the sound down.

I am not sure in what way politicians have stolen her dreams and childhood, but I would say if anyone has stolen these things, it is the parents who have allowed a child to get so consumed with fear and anger.

The main driving force behind the arguments for climate change is science and reason. It is based on the work of experts.

Pushing a highly emotional child, who has not even finished school, to the forefront, undermines this and takes it down the route of populism - or at best, emotional blackmail.

As for last weeks school strike? The main benefit to the environment would have been the massive reduction of 4x4s at the school gates ferrying the lazy wee ****es to and fro.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

You seem really angry that someone had stood up to try and waken everyone else to the reality of how **** a state this planet is now in

[SanguinePar]

19 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

You seem really angry that someone had stood up to try and waken everyone else to the reality of how **** a state this planet is now in

I agree. Teuchter, you normally come across as a pretty reasonable guy, but you really seem to hate this girl for some reason.

The 4x4s thing is a pretty cheap shot too tbh, as is describing them as lazy. I doubt that's representative of most kids.

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, The Beer Baron said:

You seem really angry that someone had stood up to try and waken everyone else to the reality of how **** a state this planet is now in

Where is the anger? That is the real cheap shot. It is not like I have came out with Hartley Brewer type shots at her.

i have nothing against her, but the fact that she is being used to peddle glib, over simplified and emotional responses to complex problems has the marks of populism.

Given the awareness already in existence, I am not exactly clear who she has woken up exactly.

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, SanguinePar said:

I agree. Teuchter, you normally come across as a pretty reasonable guy, but you really seem to hate this girl for some reason.

 The 4x4s thing is a pretty cheap shot too tbh, as is describing them as lazy. I doubt that's representative of most kids.

Accusations of hate and anger rather than addressing the argument. Sadly a trope of the modern left.

Why would I hate her. I hope this whole thing does not f**k her up in fact.

The 4x4 jibe was a joke obviously, although one based on a certain amount of reality.

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

1 hour ago, Teuchter said:

Accusations of hate and anger rather than addressing the argument. Sadly a trope of the modern left.

Why would I hate her. I hope this whole thing does not f**k her up in fact.

The 4x4 jibe was a joke obviously, although one based on a certain amount of reality.

 

That's exactly how you came across.

are you deliberately ignoring the issues the world had right now? Rising sea levels, warming to the extent that glaciers are melting faster than ever, micro plastic in almost everything we eat, rising population with ever stretched resources (although we're not at critical point... Yet).

Talk about these problems than moan about a lassie with aspergers who is trying to wake the world up

[Vinnie]

Thing is, there are two theories based on the data available, and they are purely theories rather than absolute fact.

Yes we can see the climate changing, and yes there is potential for human fault, but lets avoid the need to quote theories as facts.

[Teuchter]

21 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

That's exactly how you came across.

are you deliberately ignoring the issues the world had right now? Rising sea levels, warming to the extent that glaciers are melting faster than ever, micro plastic in almost everything we eat, rising population with ever stretched resources (although we're not at critical point... Yet).

Talk about these problems than moan about a lassie with aspergers who is trying to wake the world up

I am certainly all too aware of the rise of populism in politics and that is certainly how Greta is getting played. That is not her fault  and I have nothing against her.

There was a previous thread on here about climate change so it has been discussed already a bit. You would have to be living in a bubble to be completely unaware of the issues. 

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Maybe you should put political agenda aside. There's absolutely nothing wrong in what she's doing here.

[Teuchter]

6 hours ago, The Beer Baron said:

Maybe you should put political agenda aside. There's absolutely nothing wrong in what she's doing here.

Not her so much as those responsible for hyping her up. Her trip across the Atlantic was courageous and admirable ( I don’t even give a **** if a crew was flown over to take the boat back), but that speech last night was objectively dreadful. 

A major requirement internationally is to bring China and India on board to reduce the pollution from their rapid industrialisation. I am not sure if bringing out a schoolgirl from one of the planets richest countries to effectively hector and guilt trip them does much good to be honest. It does appeal to the already converted however, and that sadly is the role that seems to have been carved for her.

Again, it is not her fault and it is probably unfair to compare her to someone truly inspirational and articulate like Malala Yousafzai, for example.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

I agree whole hearted about bringing China and India to task on their polluting. However, the whole world needs to wake up to an ever growing crisis of which nobody of power seems to be taking seriously. It's time to try something else, why not this approach? 

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, The Beer Baron said:

I agree whole hearted about bringing China and India to task on their polluting. However, the whole world needs to wake up to an ever growing crisis of which nobody of power seems to be taking seriously. It's time to try something else, why not this approach? 

I was deliberately mealy mouthed to say "bringing China and India on board" as given their size, coercion alone won't work. This is where consumers in the west could come in I suppose by choosing carefully what they buy.

It is complicated though, as over the last 20 years 10s, possibly 100s of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty in these countries (although many would be defined as still being in poverty by our standards). It will be a balancing act to clean up industry without sending millions back to the breadline. 

If you look at the last 20 years however, the green agenda is increasingly mainstream and things are definitely moving in the right direction. 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

One thing is certain, having a modern day reasonable standard of living is not sustainable for everyone on this planet right now, given our resources.

Also I don't think the "green" movement is on the rise, on the contrary I believe it's getting worse with the likes of Trump wanting profit at any cost, Brazil declaring the Amazon their sovereign territory (and with that, doing nothing to help stop the scale of forest fires) and microplastic getting everywhere.

 

Sea life is on the brink of a total collapse due to over fishing and again, plastic waste.

[Teuchter]

1 hour ago, The Beer Baron said:

One thing is certain, having a modern day reasonable standard of living is not sustainable for everyone on this planet right now, given our resources.

That much is clear, but what do you suggest?

Population control seems to be one obvious route. China got a lot of flack for that with the one child policy. Biden recently mentioned it and got a lot of (wholly opportunistic) criticism for it from the Christian right - they accused him of racism. Macron mentioned it in a speech (the context being overpopulation plus how birth control could have a liberating effect for African women). Owen Jones took the quote out of context and , in his own inimitable juvenile style, accused Macron of crypto fascism. 

Then there is the problem of how can we, from our wealthy countries, turn around to India or China and say “well, you have reached the living standard and wealth distribution level of early 20th century Europe, but that is quite enough”

It is clear that action is required. Difficult questions need to be asked and answers found. This goes back to my original point about Greta - I can’t see how populist gestures move the debate forward: I am certainly not expecting a 16 year old to provide the answers.

For plastic use - surely it is progress when even vile right wing tabloids have taken up this cause? Out of all that you have mentioned, plastic use is probably the easiest one to solve - even that will be a huge task.

The recent Brazil fires are interesting. I am not a climate sceptic, but I am increasingly sceptical about some of the coverage. The recent fires were presented as being record breaking. Further examination revealed that this was in relation to only 6 years of records. Longer term records reveal that this year’s fires were not out of the ordinary. This could still be catastrophic - instinctively it seems bad. But then again, forest fires have been part of the nature for years. Do these fires fit into this pattern or are they entirely man made, or a mixture of both? What are the replenishment rates etc etc.

If the future of the planet is to be assured then the effort needs to be addressed where it is most required. That means moving beyond the blind acceptance of alarmist reporting. 

In answer to yesterday’s question - I am not deliberately ignoring the world’s problems. In everyday life I am no eco warrior, but abhor waste in general and try to be responsible - probably like the majority of the population. 

In terms of talking about I find it a very depressing and complex subject as - given that you are right about global consumption - there is an ethical and moral minefield approaching that will have to be crossed. Better people than me will need to figure this out. 

[Vinnie]

49 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

If the future of the planet is to be assured then the effort needs to be addressed where it is most required. That means moving beyond the blind acceptance of alarmist reporting. 

I am not deliberately ignoring the world’s problems. In everyday life I am no eco warrior, but abhor waste in general and try to be responsible - probably like the majority of the population.  

Most reporting is alarmist.  We live in age where so much information is available that as a reporter (a term I would use loosely these days), you need your written work to stand out - usually by way a sensationalist headline, followed by use of "vague positive" language, words such as "likely", or "probably", "doubtless" or "seemingly". 

As much as I accept there may be elements of human activity that have contributed to the change of the climate, our records are only 100 years old, this whole "hottest summer ever" is misleading, it may have been "the hottest summer on record" and that is very different.  

I think in this country we are making strides, as most "western" countries are - I certainly try, where possible, to recycle, switch off lights, drive less.  Its easy to lay the blame at China and India, they are developing their economies using similar methods as "First World" countries did in years gone by - Id hope they will seek to address climate change as and when their economies are robust enough.