Definition of a "great player"

[GG Riva]

I'm currently reading the fascinating autobiography of Irish international Johhny Giles, who won the FA cup with Man U before moving to Leeds United in 1963, to form a formidable central midfield partnership with Billy Bremner under Don Revie, until 1975.

In his book, he maintains that many fans and pundits accord "greatness" to players who are extremely talented but don't deserve this ultimate accolade because they don't  meet these essential criteria;

1. Whatever abilities a player possesses, must be used for the benefits of the team. This requires honesty of effort.

2. Moral courage is needed to take responsibility in accepting the ball, no matter how important the game is and regardless of the score. 

3. An honest effort must be made to regain possession when the opposition has the ball.

4. There must be no public remonstration with team mates.

5. A player must have the intelligence and humility to play the simple pass when that is the right thing to do.

It's hard to argue against any of the above, but a good number of players most of us regard as great would be excluded, among them Cristiano Ronaldo and Eric Cantona,

[Digs]

4 hours ago, GG Riva said:

I'm currently reading the fascinating autobiography of Irish international Johhny Giles, who won the FA cup with Man U before moving to Leeds United in 1963, to form a formidable central midfield partnership with Billy Bremner under Don Revie, until 1975.

In his book, he maintains that many fans and pundits accord "greatness" to players who are extremely talented but don't deserve this ultimate accolade because they don't  meet these essential criteria;

1. Whatever abilities a player possesses, must be used for the benefits of the team. This requires honesty of effort.

2. Moral courage is needed to take responsibility in accepting the ball, no matter how important the game is and regardless of the score. 

3. An honest effort must be made to regain possession when the opposition has the ball.

4. There must be no public remonstration with team mates.

5. A player must have the intelligence and humility to play the simple pass when that is the right thing to do.

It's hard to argue against any of the above, but a good number of players most of us regard as great would be excluded, among them Cristiano Ronaldo and Eric Cantona,

I don't disagree with most of that except number 4. If someone hasn't done numbers 1, 3, or 5, then they absolutely should be told in no uncertain terms. I don't think there's anything wrong in giving/receiving a bollocking on the park. If your team doesn't have that, they're missing an essential component of a winning team and that is standards. Telling them in the dressing room at HT/FT is no good if they do it again and you concede from it or continue to miss sitters.

Also, I'd be interested in what one you think Cantona didn't do as I can't think of an example from any of the above.

[GG Riva]

50 minutes ago, Digs said:

I don't disagree with most of that except number 4. If someone hasn't done numbers 1, 3, or 5, then they absolutely should be told in no uncertain terms. I don't think there's anything wrong in giving/receiving a bollocking on the park. If your team doesn't have that, they're missing an essential component of a winning team and that is standards. Telling them in the dressing room at HT/FT is no good if they do it again and you concede from it or continue to miss sitters.

Also, I'd be interested in what one you think Cantona didn't do as I can't think of an example from any of the above.

Cantona and Ronaldo were mentioned by Giles before he listed his 5 criteria. He conceded that Cantona was "a star and the game needs stars" but didn't specifically state that he wasn't a great player. Perhaps if you take his whole career into account, you will understand where Giles is coming from. Cantona didn't make for a harmonious dressing room. For player of such outstanding ability he wasn't half moved on by a host of clubs in his native France and also banned from the national side. Fergie must take a lot of credit for getting the best out of him and not punting him after the notorious Kung Fu kick on a Crystal Palace fan. That wasn't his first such aberration, btw. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Cantona

 

[Digs]

25 minutes ago, GG Riva said:

Cantona and Ronaldo were mentioned by Giles before he listed his 5 criteria. He conceded that Cantona was "a star and the game needs stars" but didn't specifically state that he wasn't a great player. Perhaps if you take his whole career into account, you will understand where Giles is coming from. Cantona didn't make for a harmonious dressing room. For player of such outstanding ability he wasn't half moved on by a host of clubs in his native France and also banned from the national side. Fergie must take a lot of credit for getting the best out of him and not punting him after the notorious Kung Fu kick on a Crystal Palace fan. That wasn't his first such aberration, btw. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Cantona

 

I know all about him, not sure any of what Giles says specifically applies though.

It could be argued that no other manager knew how to manage him and therefore they were the ones failing. Not every player is going to automatically fulfil their potential, it's up to a manager to get that out of him sometimes, that doesn't mean they can't be World Class. Most of the managers who moved him on for example just weren't capable of managing him, Ferguson was.

The 'kung fu' kick also doesn't fall under any of the above reasons either, and if we are saying it precludes him from being World Class then you'd have to say the same about Maradona who was in the middle of a riot doing exactly that after taking one too many horrific challenges for Barca. To say he's not World Class would be laughable though.

The fact is, whilst I agree with what Giles said, it's also a little bit idealistic and simplistic, most of the best players are a bit flawed in some way, whether it be temperament, attitude, personality or even addiction. Robert Prosinecki smoked 60 fags a day and was an absolute baller, Gazza was an alcoholic who beat up his Mrs but was still a world class footballer. Sometimes, their flaws are what makes them great as they usually have an unwavering belief in their ability that comes from their 'flaws' (not suggesting beating up your mrs is what made Gazza great, nor is it acceptable btw). Zlatan Ibrahimovic is possibly the most confident player that ever lived and plays like it. He could absolutely leave one on an opponent and is a product of his harsh upbringing, that doesn;t detract from how good he is, and could be argued contributed to it. 

 

[parsforlife]

Ibrahimovic was the name I thought of as someone who considers part 3 very much not why he’s on the pitch. He considers reserving his energy for the big moments to be important and that means he limits what he uses up when his team is out of possession,  maybe that doesn’t automatically disqualify him tho.

[buspasspar]

Dimitar Berbatov   .. maybe 2 ? and 5 ? but a great of greats 

[GG Riva]

27 minutes ago, buspasspar said:

Dimitar Berbatov   .. maybe 2 ? and 5 ? but a great of greats 

He looked a fantastic player for Spurs but his career stalled at Man United. 😒

[buspasspar]

Not so sure G G 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbooIRTDgVo

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP_yG8OsgUU