Extremists

[Vinnie]

 

I fail to see how state sanctioned terrorism and arbitrary killing will lead to a safer future. 

 

I disagree with this.  Ultimately there is a chain of command within ISIS, that starts in a foreign land. For whatever reason, foreign governments are unwilling or incapable of stopping their expansion. They need help. We can provide that support - whethers thats air strikes, ground troops, training.

The security forces have been tackling Jihadis. They will keep on tackling them. The jihadis aren't going to win.

This I do agree with.  Alot of their successes will be unreported.  A couple of reason for this, including the fact that if the public knew how deep this runs the country would run on paranoia. It also allows for the activities to continue so that the security forces can catch the bigger fish.

Imo this terrorism has reached its peak and we need to act as a country.

I disagree. It will continue. In part because elements of the British public, as demonstrated in this thread, are against firmer action. 

What would you do to get rid of the Isis taking over our country? 

Not as easy as just taking action. We dont have the resources. Our police forces and army have reduced significantly in the past 20 years. How do we pay for the increased presence? Do you want to pay higher taxes? 

[Secure Par]

Ah see we have it ok up here as there has not been any bombing etc.

I have worked down south in Manchester, Stoke and Bradford.

You can't go into some Islam communities to do your job unless you get the go ahead. It was the same as ireland 10 years ago. 

These extremists will be up here soon spouting their nonesense and taking over. 

What do we do then? 

[Vinnie]

Ah see we have it ok up here as there has not been any bombing etc

Whos that comment aimed at?

Back in the days of the IRA, Scotland was reasonably safe from bombings.  IRA had a degree of sympathy for their cause up here, and an attack here would have destroyed any support.

This is a different "enemy".  Although, Id suggest that there are fewer Muslim communities within our nation of 6million compared to the rest of Englandshire.  Scotland and Wales, and Northern Ireland are less likely to be attacked.

Thats not really the point though.

I wonder, if Edinburgh was attacked, and friends or family of our little football community were caught up in the effects and aftermath, would folk be so steadfast in their current belief system?  A moot point I guess, unless it actually happens.

[Teuchter]

@Vinnie 

"I disagree with this.  Ultimately there is a chain of command within ISIS, that starts in a foreign land. For whatever reason, foreign governments are unwilling or incapable of stopping their expansion. They need help. We can provide that support - whethers thats air strikes, ground troops, training."

I wasn't talking about foreign intervention, but the Israeli styled intervention in the case of domestic threats that was implied in another post.

The case of foreign intervention that you mention makes sense if clear cut. Syria and Libya have proved how ill advised it can be.

As mentioned before, some of, what are deemed to be, allies in the Middle East fund dubious enterprises. Some journalists have traced the funding of some of the more dubious Mosques in France to Qatar. They also however own PSG and other investments, so nothing is said. Cutting the funding of radical Islam seems to be a week point, as Trump proved again this week.

 

 

[Secure Par]

Our government has been following these idiots for years getting evidence to take them to court. The problem is there are thousands now involved trying to kill British people in our own country. 

Its a minefield down south and I hope the immigrants/Isis sympothers are caught

We are lucky up here but the Isis wil spread their beliefs. I have no doubt we will fight the evil idiots more. 

Trust me it's murder living down south.

[Piracy]

Any security information that thwarts an attack usually comes from within the Muslim community.

These acts are designed to divide communities but from what I've read and watched online tonight that hasn't happened in Manchester.

Tommy Robinson has been spouting his usual brand of opportunistic hate filled gash all day on Twitter.

Not everything he says is without substance but you have to question the motives behind it. 

Today should be about remembering the people killed and injured. 

[GG Riva]

People holding extreme views can be dangerous, the events of Manchester were abhorrent and despicable acts. I can't get my head around how any human being can plan and execute such an evil plan against a completely random group of innocent people. Such acts of terror are extremely difficult to prevent and almost impossible to eradicate, because those who carry them out do not appear to place any value on their own lives.

I can't help asking myself why some people from different cultures and backgrounds to our own, hate us so much and what can be done to change their perception of Western Society, but because we sure as hell can't bomb them out of existence, as Donald Trump threatened to do in his pre-election tirades.

[Teuchter]

"what can be done"

@GG Riva the question ifor me is what can be done that already is not being done. That is aside from increased security, intelligence gathering, covert operations, surveillance, and also foreign military operations? The premise on this thread that nothing is being done is false. I know this from my everyday life. What we don't know about so much are the atrocities that are prevented - as has been said, often with the involvement of the Muslim community.

What more can be done? Let's look at the options on this thread:

@El Patrón suggests holding an entire community responsible as they must know right?

@Vinnie suggests pushing the intellegence operations in a Stasi like direction where people inform on each other for what could be perfectly innocent activities

@SecurePar wants to close the borders, target Pakastani communities and sanction arbitrary assisinations carried out by the military in civilian communities.    

 Take your pick Mr Riva.

[Teuchter]

 

"I wonder, if Edinburgh was attacked, and friends or family of our little football community were caught up in the effects and aftermath, would folk be so steadfast in their current belief system?"

 

Residing somewhere that has already lived though several serious attacks, I think that you would probably be somewhat disappointed by the lack of an overwhelming right wing totalitarian lurch

[Vinnie]

 

@Vinnie suggests pushing the intellegence operations in a Stasi like direction where people inform on each other for what could be perfectly innocent activities

A slight exaggeration of what I said Mr Teuchter.  A bit naughty of you.

As it is, folk are already being asked to be vigilant, and this is the public being asked to report suspicious activity of complete strangers... how the hell are folk supposed to know how a stranger acts?

Im asking that folk who have a routine, be aware of behavioural changes, and report anything out of the ordinary.

[Teuchter]

 

@Vinnie suggests pushing the intellegence operations in a Stasi like direction where people inform on each other for what could be perfectly innocent activities

A slight exaggeration of what I said Mr Teuchter.  A bit naughty of you.

As it is, folk are already being asked to be vigilant, and this is the public being asked to report suspicious activity of complete strangers... how the hell are folk supposed to know how a stranger acts?

Im asking that folk who have a routine, be aware of behavioural changes, and report anything out of the ordinary.

I did overstate it a bit, but when I read what you said originally it did bring to mind accounts that I have read of life in totalitarian regimes where no one could be sure who to trust, and where informers used the system for personal gain

Initiatives do already exist citing the type of vigilance you mention for families in relation to children falling under the influence of extremism.

[El Patrón]

"what can be done"

@GG Riva the question ifor me is what can be done that already is not being done. That is aside from increased security, intelligence gathering, covert operations, surveillance, and also foreign military operations? The premise on this thread that nothing is being done is false. I know this from my everyday life. What we don't know about so much are the atrocities that are prevented - as has been said, often with the involvement of the Muslim community.

What more can be done? Let's look at the options on this thread:

@El Patrón suggests holding an entire community responsible as they must know right?

@Vinnie suggests pushing the intellegence operations in a Stasi like direction where people inform on each other for what could be perfectly innocent activities

@SecurePar wants to close the borders, target Pakastani communities and sanction arbitrary assisinations carried out by the military in civilian communities.    

 Take your pick Mr Riva.

You forgot the option where we all just keep calm and carry on, light a few candles and "stand together" as it is clearly working so far.

Do the muslim community integrate into our communities? I don't believe they do (especially south of the border), nowadays they probably feel like outsiders a little bit due to the actions of others amongst them with their twisted ideology. However, maybe if they had made more efforts to integrate into our communities and culture in the beginning they wouldn't be feeling this way? Down South it is clear that certain areas within towns and cities are "Muslim" areas. Why did they all want to congregate in the same places and stick together? Why not immerse themselves in British culture and spread out?

[Vinnie]

 

"I wonder, if Edinburgh was attacked, and friends or family of our little football community were caught up in the effects and aftermath, would folk be so steadfast in their current belief system?"

 

Residing somewhere that has already lived though several serious attacks, I think that you would probably be somewhat disappointed by the lack of an overwhelming right wing totalitarian lurch

Again, twisting words Mr T.

I didnt suggest a right wing lurch en masse.  You make it sound like I want a witch hunt.  I believe, you can still have your core and basic political belief while still recognising the virtues of some alternative views from the opposite end of the scale.

I did also say its a moot point until, God forbid, folk have that experience.  

[El Patrón]

"At the mosque, Mohammed Saeed El-Saeiti, the imam at the Didsbury mosque yesterday branded Abedi an dangerous extremist. “Salman showed me the face of hate after my speech on Isis,” said the imam. “He used to show me the face of hate and I could tell this person does not like me. It’s not a surprise to me.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/salman-abedi-named-manchester-suicide-bomber-know/

That's exactly the type of thing I have been getting at.

[Vinnie]

Here's an interesting thought for everyone....

Salman Abedi was know apparently known to security forces, so why was he allowed to roam free?  Because, unfortunately, that's the way the law works.  So you change the law right?  Except its not that simple apparently.

This begs the question, why does the law surrounding downloading copyright content on a Kodi box come with the threat of a 10 year prison sentence, when these boxes have only been around 5 minutes, yet we cant change a law that would have potentially protected 8 year old kids at pop concert?