Extremists

[SanguinePar]

So on point 6, how are refugees relevant here?

Unless they're the 'it' referred to in 7?

And, beyond that, I don't believe you're so obtuse as to really think I or others don't want to stop terrorism. Personally I don't think labelling and marginalising groups of people is an especially good way to try and achieve that, but each to their own.

[SanguinePar]

‌@‌SanguinePar, I think you have illustrated ‌@El Patrón's point perfectly. 

How so?

By inferring that El Patron is a bigot and a racist, because he dared to broach the subject from a view you oppose.  Fine, debate the point, but don't slur the man for discussing a topic and holding a different view from your own.

I started by saying that making assumptions that Muslims were responsible for last night was a bad idea. I stand by that. It is a bad idea.

If you (or he) took from it that I was implying he was racist, that's your problem.

 

 

What makes you think nothing is being done - from all communities?

This.

Plus, why is there the assumption that the 'Muslim communities' always know all about all the other Muslims in their area? Do you (anyone, not you Teuchter) know all of your neighbours so well as to be sure they're not dodgy? Or to be sure enough to report them to the police?

No I don't know all my neighbours.  And I accept that there are some generalisations in this topic, as there will be more as the thread continues.

I'll start, by saying that generally, Muslims are religious and many will visit their local Mosque.  I don't have the figures, but I imagine for every 10 churches or 20 churches, there is a single Mosque.  That makes the Mosque a community focal point.  I can quite imagine that the local Mosque is where preachers can recruit the young minds in the first instance, before the venue of teachings moves to houses, or industrial units....

I know that folk are "missing" from my bus trip into work, faces I see most days.  That example could be easily cross over into folk not seeing the same faces at Mosques over a period? - of course, that's not a guarantee that someone "missing" from the Mosque is a bomber.

A lot of assumptions being made there.

 

Incidently.....

ISIS have claimed responsibility now.   

 

I saw that yeah. They tend to claim responsibility for a lot of things, but this at least is a first bit of information to indicate that what was being assumed at the top of the thread might be right. I still stand by the principle of not jumping to conclusions about something so serious without evidence.

You wrongly assumed I had jumped to conclusions, when the thread was generally talking about extremism.

You also decided to show a blog about Tommy Robinson, where a few known racists happened to be photographed with him and said I would be comfortable with this? As I said before, anyone can be photographed with anyone - it proved nothing other than to try and back up your views of me. You also wrongly described him as "my hero" when all I did was say, he has made a lot of good points over the years when it comes to extremism.

You have also offered nothing to this other than to infer racism and take the moral high ground.

There is an obvious issue in society, yet everyone would rather dance around it and get offended by those who dare to speak out against it, rather than tackle the problems at hand.

How is it tackling the problems at hand to immediately start talking about Muslims when something bad happens? You've offered no solutions either, other than a cartoon vaguely blaming refugees. 

I'll happily discuss solutions if you want, but if you're just going to start with the usual 'Muslims are a problem' narrative, expect to get called out on it.

[El Patrón]

Because in the modern world, it's 99% certain that a "Muslim" with a skewed ideology of what they believe has carried out the attack. It's sad, but it's true.

I don't know what the solution is, but in my opinion, the greater Muslim population needs to start speaking out (and if they already are - then given bigger platforms) to root out these scumbags. 

There's only so long we can keep changing profile pictures, having candlelight vigils, making statements of defiance "we stand together".... something needs done.

The authorities maybe need more powers to track and detain these terrorists as more often than not the people involved have been known to the authorities as well? Human rights can do one, the safety of the general public is much more important.

[Vinnie]

Nobody blamed Muslims as a whole, other than to suggest that it might be helpful of Muslim Community Leaders to name possible bombers to the authorities before they strike? 

Everyone is fully aware that there is an extreme and distorted faction of the Muslim community.  And yes, I might say that this was orchestrated by Muslims, which is factually correct. One would be Muslim, two or three or four would be Muslims, as would ten or a thousand.

Its also true that people might twist those words by assuming that I mean all Muslims, and label me racist accordingly.  Those people are wrong.

 

[Teuchter]

"the greater Muslim population needs to start speaking out (and if they already are - then given bigger platforms) "

That is a good point, as aside from the run of the mill condemnations after attacks, I have read plenty of criticism of extremist (and even just conservative) Islam from Middle Eastern journalists. They don't get picked up on. Particularly in places like the Daily Mail or websites that share posters that equate refugees to terrorists. 

."... something needs done."

What exactly that isn't being done already? There are huge amounts of resources and intelligence diverted towards this, not to mention initiatives in communities. That is the thing, posters like the one you shared (that looks like it originated from some right wing yank website tbh) implies that people simply want nothing done. That is not true. There are standards that exist in civilised nations, that once dropped, would be hard to pull back again. The disagreement essentially lies here - although it is rarely conducted cordially.

 

"Human rights can do one, "

Which ones and for what specific gain? It sounds a bit drastic.

 

[Secure Par]

[Superally]

As much as I find the events in Manchester upsetting. I will openly admit to finding some of the opinions in this thread making me feel uncomfortable. I firmly believe in people expressing their opinion freely in debate but I don't think I will be visiting in here often.

[El Patrón]

Teuchter, clearly enough isn't being done as we have to deal with these cowardly attacks so often. I do not have the solution, but I know f***ying around in stupid acts of defiance are doing hee haw.

The poster I shared was floating around on Twitter and it may have been a bit OTT. However I feel it shows the pointless guff we trot out each time? I do not agree with the refugee point, however maybe it is time to stop letting anyone else in until we have our own house in order?

Pray for Paris, pray for Moscow, pray for Brussels, pray for London....lets have a candlelit vigil, aye lets all light candles, that will sort it.

[Secure Par]

As much as I find the events in Manchester upsetting. I will openly admit to finding some of the opinions in this thread making me feel uncomfortable. I firmly believe in people expressing their opinion freely in debate but I don't think I will be visiting in here often.

well tbh if my children are going to a concert or a big venue I want them to be safe and not get blown up by some nutter. Any person our government is looking into about terrorism should have their houses searched and if found guilty then get put in a cell.

Innocent teenagers got killed by some erse hole expressing his religion. Fek the boys religion and go into these areas and take these idiots out. 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Right, you said close the borders. Describe to us in detail exactly what you mean by this?

By the way, I utterly despise these pathetic and pointless things like people on Facebook putting badges or colouring their profile, or lighting us Marischal College here in Aberdeen. I want something done about innocent people being killed here, but if I'm honest the only place where I know where to begin is to stop meddling in foreign affairs that do NOT concern us. No amount of rhetoric nonsense like "we'll stand together" or clambouring to be seen to show "respect" as quickly as possible is going to help anyone. But neither, in my view, is the solution "closing the borders". What does even mean? Should my Hungarian partner be barred from coming to visit? No? Then please be specific about what you mean by this because it raises a LOT of questions and leaves a LOT open to interpretation.

[Teuchter]

@Secure Par flaunting his ignorance as if It were a virtue to be proud of. 

 

Pray for Paris? I don't fcking need to. I live here. I get up in the morning and go to work as normal by train and barely give the attacks a thought. Once you let the ****hole terrorists disrupt your life and stick in your head, that is their first victory. By the looks of it, they have a couple of ones under their belt in Fife.

There have been soldiers on the streets since I lived here - before the recent attacks started. The security forces have been tackling Jihadis long before the British. They will keep on tackling them. The jihadis aren't going to win.

 

I fail to see how state sanctioned terrorism and arbitrary killing will lead to a safer future. 

 

 

 

 

[Secure Par]

Imo this terrorism has reached its peak and we need to act as a country.

Close the borders for a few months and work on the extremists that the government have been following through investigations then get them. 

Get into these Pakistani communities down south that have their own law and get them to comply with British law.

if they don't then they leave!

Can anybody imagine if you started this in Saudi Arabia? You would be dead! 

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Close the borders for a few months? Right, so no flights no ships no trains in or out?

Work on the extremists? They should be doing this right now. This isn't Kings Landing where you can just shut the gate!

But you've narrowed it down to the Pakistani communties, you should probably call Scotland Yard to tell them. Not sure why you mention Saudi Arabia, it's Pakistan we should be taking some names from!

I have the faintest feeling you're trolling, or mixing it with a little bit of what you actually think.

[Secure Par]

So let's hear what you all would do then?

A few posters have said what they would do... then there are others who put their opinions across but sit on the fence. 

What would you do to get rid of the Isis taking over our country? 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

I've already said that I don't have all the answers, I'm not smart enough to come up with a plan to stop all this once and for good.

 

CLOSE THU BORDURZ. I mock this idea because it's ludacris unless you become a lot more specific to what the actual f*** this means unless you're dead serious about stopping the flow of people completely.

 

Also, I don't see ISIS taking over the country!   laughable claim!!!!