Guest The Beer Baron Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Can anyone give credible reason for this now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 It's getting harder to be fair. I still think though that our cultural and emotional links with the UK are strong enough to keep the union together in hope of making it better for everyone. I'm not sure just cutting and running is a good idea - and that applies to both Brexit and Scottish independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Beer Baron Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 There is no guarantee that an Independent Scotland would gain automatic access into the EU again. Many of our businesses are linked to affiliated sites and companies across the rest of the UK. We should surely look at the Brexit Withdrawal and take heed of lessons to be learnt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teuchter Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 14 hours ago, SanguinePar said: It's getting harder to be fair. I still think though that our cultural and emotional links with the UK are strong enough to keep the union together in hope of making it better for everyone. I'm not sure just cutting and running is a good idea - and that applies to both Brexit and Scottish independence. An electoral pact between Farage and Johnson will decimate Corbyn. What has persuaded me is not just the swing to the right and the deluded brand of nationalism at play down south, but the utterly feeble and divided opposition to it. A No Deal under Johnson govt with Farage in the cabinet, sucking up to Trump. Would your resolve hold under those circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Teuchter said: An electoral pact between Farage and Johnson will decimate Corbyn. What has persuaded me is not just the swing to the right and the deluded brand of nationalism at play down south, but the utterly feeble and divided opposition to it. It doesnt need a pact to decimate Corbyn. Hes doing a fine job of being incompetent without their help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 16 hours ago, SanguinePar said: It's getting harder to be fair. I still think though that our cultural and emotional links with the UK are strong enough to keep the union together in hope of making it better for everyone. I'm not sure just cutting and running is a good idea - and that applies to both Brexit and Scottish independence. We have cultural and emotional links to other places (including Europe), but surely sharing a language, cuisine etc (even though there are multiple differences in different regions let along the four nations of the UK) isn't enough to suffer the ****show that's surely to come? Boris doesn't believe a Scot should be PM, you just know he'll be looking at the Barnett Formula as soon as possible, he is a free trader anti-oversight, right wing racist and is going to make up a cabinet of like thinkers. And all of this on top of Scotland overwhelmingly voting to remain in the EU (voting No was the only way to stay in if you remember 2014) yet about to be faced with the cliff edge of a no deal Brexit (even as a pro-Europe Yes/Remain voter I'd have reluctantly accepted a soft Brexit a la Norway or an EEFTA style arrangement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Teuchter said: An electoral pact between Farage and Johnson will decimate Corbyn. What has persuaded me is not just the swing to the right and the deluded brand of nationalism at play down south, but the utterly feeble and divided opposition to it. A No Deal under Johnson govt with Farage in the cabinet, sucking up to Trump. Would your resolve hold under those circumstances? Probably. I don't think permanent constitutional issues should be decided based on temporary political periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, SanguinePar said: I don't think permanent constitutional issues should be decided based on temporary political periods. Pretty much all "political periods" are temporary, no? You can only vote based on the current political climate and the options put in front of you at that set point in time? While the political landscape has changed from 2014 to 2016 to now, no one can truly predict that the UK will completely fail without the EU, or that Scotland will be better for being independent of the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teuchter Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 44 minutes ago, SanguinePar said: Probably. I don't think permanent constitutional issues should be decided based on temporary political periods. Temporary? Scotland has been getting shat on by Tory governments that it has not elected for the majority of 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted July 25, 2019 Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 21 hours ago, Teuchter said: Temporary? Scotland has been getting shat on by Tory governments that it has not elected for the majority of 40 years. To the extent that that's true, Scotland isn't the only place that has been getting shat on in that time, it's a misrepresentation to imply that it is. The Tories have f***ed things up for a huge number of people all over the UK. And yes, I consider (some, or even a majority of) 40 years temporary, in the context of such major constitutional change. Also, the OP refers to "now", clearly in the context of Brexit/Johnston - so evoking further history is shifting the goalposts a bit. Finally, much like Brexit, I'm yet to hear a really good and convincing (to me) reason for Scotland to break away - and IMO the onus is on those wanting the change to make the case, without resorting to flag waving nationalism and cries of cowardice or scaremongering to those who oppose it. The parallels are striking actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 25, 2019 Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 35 minutes ago, SanguinePar said: the onus is on those wanting the change to make the case, without resorting to flag waving nationalism and cries of cowardice or scaremongering to those who oppose it. The parallels are striking actually. I think there is a certain irony that is missed on many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teuchter Posted July 25, 2019 Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, SanguinePar said: To the extent that that's true, Scotland isn't the only place that has been getting shat on in that time, it's a misrepresentation to imply that it is. The Tories have f***ed things up for a huge number of people all over the UK. And yes, I consider (some, or even a majority of) 40 years temporary, in the context of such major constitutional change. Also, the OP refers to "now", clearly in the context of Brexit/Johnston - so evoking further history is shifting the goalposts a bit. Finally, much like Brexit, I'm yet to hear a really good and convincing (to me) reason for Scotland to break away - and IMO the onus is on those wanting the change to make the case, without resorting to flag waving nationalism and cries of cowardice or scaremongering to those who oppose it. The parallels are striking actually. Ok, shift to the present - if Scotland was guaranteed a place in the EU? You are right about the abuse directed to those who need persuaded by the way. The 45% score in the referendum was quite remarkable really due to the starting point. I think the Better Together campaign’s constant scaremongering got their nose over the line, but in failing to make a positive case, made sure the issue was not dead. I think if a referendum does come again the independence side need to ensure the abusive element is outshouted and buried - although the media will make that difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teuchter Posted July 25, 2019 Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 30 minutes ago, Vinnie said: I think there is a certain irony that is missed on many. The biggest irony will be Brexiteers making the very arguments that they opposed vehemently during the EU referendum - flipping once more. Of course, there is a certain irony in seeking self determination within the EU, but the fact is, for the most part, the current wave of nationalism in Scotland is, on the whole, far removed from the blood and soil variety of down south. Nationalism is a creed that I have no time for, but there is at the moment in Scotland a simple choice between what variety will direct the country’s future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 25, 2019 Report Share Posted July 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, Teuchter said: Nationalism is a creed that I have no time for I think that applies to the silent majority who make their case with reason and logic and thought. The trouble is that those who are on the side of Nationalism are shouting louder and louder and gaining all the attention. The biggest of all ironies is that these folk abhor Trump, while following his MO, and they just dont get that they are walking contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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