Election

[Teuchter]

On 13 December 2019 at 07:58, Piracy said:

There you have it. Utterly depressing situation. 

Time now to unshackle this country from this fractured Union. 

Returning these kuntz to Government is a crime against morality. 

I still cannot fathom why anyone would vote for them and I don't consider myself stupid. 

 

After a few days, how do you feel about a second referendum and independence?

[Vinnie]

If we were to hold a second referendum, where does it end if the result is a No again?  

We'll have another campaign by half truths and lies on both sides.  Then there is a Withdrawal Agreement of sorts to be negotiated, do we want that to go to a Peoples Vote too? 

Will Scotland become even more fractured within a fractured Union? 

[Teuchter]

59 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

If we were to hold a second referendum, where does it end if the result is a No again?  

We'll have another campaign by half truths and lies on both sides.  Then there is a Withdrawal Agreement of sorts to be negotiated, do we want that to go to a Peoples Vote too? 

Will Scotland become even more fractured within a fractured Union? 

What if it is more like the consensus built for devolution? The Labour Party is starting to move towards Independence.

 

[Vinnie]

Id be happy with greater devolved powers. 

We already pay income tax at a different rate from the rest of the UK, we already have free prescriptions, we already have our own legal system, so there are elements of having self-determination that we should seek to expand and strengthen.

[Guest The Beer Baron]

But why not fully?

[Vinnie]

21 minutes ago, The Beer Baron said:

But why not fully?

Fully devolved powers?  Or fully independent? 

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Fully independent?

[Vinnie]

I dont think that you can convince the likes of Johnson to allow a second referendum.  I think that we can aim for greater devolved powers. 

I think that there is still too many folk who are not ready for full independence, I think that a second referendum will lead to greater toxicity between friends and families and communities, and Id be hopeful that greater devolved powers would demonstrate to those who arent sure that there is a capability that we could be successful fully independent one day.   

I think that there is a big leap from where we are now, to the ideologies of independence.  I think those campaigning for independence have different ideas about how it should look - in much the same way as folk had different ideas about Brexit.  

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

What do YOU think though? Not what other people think?

 

I'm not being a ****, or trying to be despite how it may seem. I ask because i feel it's my personal duty to critique my own choices and research by challenging them.

[Vinnie]

I look at the way in which the two referendums were fought and to me, there are still too many unanswered questions about how realistic the various promises are for Brexit, and for Scottish Independence.  

The UK is our biggest trade market, will there be a hard border? Will there free movement throughout the UK?  What tarriffs might be imposed?  How will a trade deal with England and Wales work? 

Weve already seen the Westminster didnt get all there own way in the EU divorce, why would Sturgeon fair any better? There may not even be a guarantee of acceptance into the EU.

Its not fear of change.  Im not scaremongering.  Simply questions that are unanswered, or cannot be answered until Scotland votes Yes, and negotiatins take place and we cant and wont get all our own way.

Greater devolved powers is a step in the right direction, its common ground for the short term, and step towards a longer term goal.

Let me ask this again... if we have a second IndyRef, and the result is No, will we put the issue to bed, or do Sturgeon and Blackford continue flog the horse? 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

Difficult to say. For me personally, if honestly give up any hope of it. If Brexit and a Johnston led Tory Westminster with no alternative isn't enough, nothing will be.

 

[Vinnie]

The other thing about IndyRef2 is that the original IndyRef was billed as once in a generation.  The demographic that supposedly predominently voted No hasnt died off yet.  That generation will still have a say in IndyRef2 and could potentially deal Sturgeon and SNP another blow to their plans.  

[Piracy]

On 16/12/2019 at 08:57, Teuchter said:

After a few days, how do you feel about a second referendum and independence?

Essential now. I voted Corbyn and for a socialist unit that would have challenged the self-entitled, neo-liberalist shect-hoose of Westminster. However it was always just a hopeful dream of change. The UK is a dead duck as a concept. Nationalism is where we're at now. Civic nationalism is preferable to the nationalism on offer in England. Not what I wanted but hey.. who am I? Just another middle aged male who's political views belong in the past. 

[Teuchter]

2 hours ago, Piracy said:

Essential now. I voted Corbyn and for a socialist unit that would have challenged the self-entitled, neo-liberalist shect-hoose of Westminster. However it was always just a hopeful dream of change. The UK is a dead duck as a concept. Nationalism is where we're at now. Civic nationalism is preferable to the nationalism on offer in England. Not what I wanted but hey.. who am I? Just another middle aged male who's political views belong in the past. 

 I agree with what you say about there essentially now being a choice between two nationalisms. An ex RAF English mate from up North has embraced Independence also (plus a couple of others I spoke to) , so seeing you change also has made me think this could be a turning point. If it is won, I would  like to see it come about through the type of consensus that led to Devolution. Early days yet however.

 

 

 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

10 hours ago, Piracy said:

Essential now. I voted Corbyn and for a socialist unit that would have challenged the self-entitled, neo-liberalist shect-hoose of Westminster. However it was always just a hopeful dream of change. The UK is a dead duck as a concept. Nationalism is where we're at now. Civic nationalism is preferable to the nationalism on offer in England. Not what I wanted but hey.. who am I? Just another middle aged male who's political views belong in the past. 

Wouldn't say your views belong in the past, they're essential as an opposer to the right wing, selfish society that New Labour and now this Tory government have been building for a couple of decades now.

allow me to say though, that I never expected to see you say that you'd shift over to side with those favoring independence. Says a lot about the state of the political landscape that so many have now switched their view.

 

Also Vinnie, your list of points to iron out on this issue are well worth bringing up because a lot of people, myself included, sometimes forget how much there would be to negotiate. And remember whom exactly we'd be negotiating with...