Election

[Teuchter]

8 minutes ago, Digs said:

Corbyn is defintiely to blame. Despite what I said earlier in this thread, his complete unwillingness to compromise on certain things has been his undoing. 

Definitely this. A decent guy but a hopeless political operator, enabled by a cult.

A shower of middle class twats signing “ooooh Jeremy Corbyn” in a field is not effective opposition. It is just self indulgence.

Everyone knows what the media is like in this country so it was frustrating to see needless own goal after own goal from Labour.

A shower of useless *******s decimated by a shower of ruthless *******s.

It is ironic that an issue that put a fault line right through the Tories has ended up up putting them in power and finishing Labour.

[Vinnie]

As far as Scotland is concerned, Im not sure that Sturgeon has a mandate for IndyRef2.  

If you look at Westminster seat representation, 48 of 59 seats is 81.3%.  And on these figures alone you could argue a very strong case. 

However, if you assume that a vote for SNP is a vote for IndyRef2, and a vote for the other five parties in Scotland is a vote to reject IndyRef2, only 45% voted SNP and thats not a majority.  

And yes, I recognise that thats quite a basic view, and that many other factors will dictate how folk vote. 

 

[Digs]

By the same token more people voted for remain parties yesterday and he is now claiming a clear mandate to 'Get Brexit Done'. He can't have it both ways.

[GG Riva]

2 hours ago, Digs said:

And that sadly sums up the collective sense of the majority of voters. voting for a slogan, ignoring what they actually stand for, and what they have done over the past 9 years in government. 

If I hear one more time how the electorate don't get it wrong or how astute the British electorate is, I think  I will scream, because it clearly doesn't. A mixture of abject selfishness and turkeys voting for Christmas.

Corbyn is definitely to blame. Despite what I said earlier in this thread, his complete unwillingness to compromise on certain things has been his undoing. 

What really rips my knitting is when politicians try to ingratiate themselves with the electorate by saying things like ''don't insult our voters' intelligence, they're very clued up.''  Clued up, my @r$e. 

I was recently taken to task for suggesting that a significant proportion of the electorate is very gullible. Does anyone need any further proof?

[Vinnie]

10 minutes ago, GG Riva said:

Clued up, my @r$e.  I was recently taken to task for suggesting that a significant proportion of the electorate is very gullible. Does anyone need any further proof?

So we shouldnt be allowed to vote?  Or should you have to pass some sort of capability test before voting?    

Its funny though, the sort of animosity across the country (the UK as a whole, not just Scotland) is like watching Trump supporters.  We abhor their actions, but they seem to be replicated here.  

Like the post of Jimmy Savile.  Not all Tories are Paedophiles of course.  The atmosphere and the attitudes towards others is toxic.  

 

[Teuchter]

56 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

So we shouldnt be allowed to vote?  Or should you have to pass some sort of capability test before voting?    

Its funny though, the sort of animosity across the country (the UK as a whole, not just Scotland) is like watching Trump supporters.  We abhor their actions, but they seem to be replicated here.  

Like the post of Jimmy Savile.  Not all Tories are Paedophiles of course.  The atmosphere and the attitudes towards others is toxic.  

 

I posted what I thought was a funny photo of Savile on a lightly used Internet forum - knowing that no one (almost no one) would see anything other than a topical photo of something vaguely embarrassing to the Tories. 

 

Hardly in the same league as Trump’s tweets, Farage’s posters or even Johnson’s magazine articles- and all the ****e in between.

Ok, your posts on that other thread are not in their league either.

Imagine if the t-shirt had said vote Labour? The Sun would have used it, I have no doubt.

 

[Vinnie]

3 minutes ago, Teuchter said:

I posted what I thought was a funny photo of Savile on a lightly used Internet forum - knowing that no one (almost no one) would see anything other than a topical photo of something vaguely embarrassing to the Tories. 

 

Hardly in the same league as Trump’s tweets, Farage’s posters or even Johnson’s magazine articles- and all the ****e in between.

Ok, your posts on that other thread are not in their league either.

Imagine if the t-shirt had said vote Labour? The Sun would have used it, I have no doubt.

 

I used that photo of an example of the sort of toxicity in the country.  Im not particularly offended it, and on this forum it will be relatively unnoticed. 

I'll be honest, my earlier post (below)... 

3 hours ago, Vinnie said:

As far as Scotland is concerned, Im not sure that Sturgeon has a mandate for IndyRef2.  

If you look at Westminster seat representation, 48 of 59 seats is 81.3%.  And on these figures alone you could argue a very strong case. 

However, if you assume that a vote for SNP is a vote for IndyRef2, and a vote for the other five parties in Scotland is a vote to reject IndyRef2, only 45% voted SNP and thats not a majority.  

And yes, I recognise that thats quite a basic view, and that many other factors will dictate how folk vote. 

 

has taken alot of heat elsewhere.  I think its relatively balanced view given the basic data available, playing Devils Advocate a little.  Apparently Im Satanic and a murderer - something to do with supporting austerity and austerity indirectly being attributed to 130,000 deaths in the UK - although  Im not sure where that leap is made? 

 

[Teuchter]

7 hours ago, Vinnie said:

has taken alot of heat elsewhere.  I think its relatively balanced view given the basic data available, playing Devils Advocate a little.  Apparently Im Satanic and a murderer - something to do with supporting austerity and austerity indirectly being attributed to 130,000 deaths in the UK - although  Im not sure where that leap is made? 

 

Can't accuse you of inhabiting echo chambers that is for sure.

I think the response on here seemed fair enough. It is balanced in one sense, but in the conclusion, does happened to echo the Tory line. If that is what you believe that is what you believe.

If I was the SNP I would be taking out billboards with Thatcher's face and the quote about a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland being enough for Independence - or the many Tory quotes during the election saying that this was a verdict on a referendum. They roundly lost.

In reality the road to Independence will depend on the numbers converted by what has happened in England. That won't be won or lost on the internet but will be driven by sentiment in the real world. I have already encountered a few folk who have considered this a turning point.

I take it the forums where the rough responses came were a bit busier than here? I assume it was the Internet and not real life!

If it was this morning then the number of raw nerves would have been pretty high I think.

On Facebook my post 2014 cull has keep my feeds largely politics free. On Twitter I try and keep a lid on it, just having football, music or comedy stuff, but it always creeps in. The internet is not a good place to debate really. Dot net pre 2014 referendum was an equal measure of tedium and toxicity at some points. I imagine it is a fairly representive place.

Given the need for Internet hits, the wider media is no help where sensationalism trumps information. 

In real live have you encountered much of the toxic side of things? It is out there - it must be - but I am not sure how much those simpletons outside parliament with their flags, on both sides, are in any way representative of society at large. I suppose the question is, how much of the toxic stuff is leaking into real life?

 

[GG Riva]

18 hours ago, Vinnie said:

So we shouldnt be allowed to vote?  Or should you have to pass some sort of capability test before voting?    

Its funny though, the sort of animosity across the country (the UK as a whole, not just Scotland) is like watching Trump supporters.  We abhor their actions, but they seem to be replicated here.  

Like the post of Jimmy Savile.  Not all Tories are Paedophiles of course.  The atmosphere and the attitudes towards others is toxic.  

 

You've misinterpreted my post, Vinnie. At no time was I suggesting that anyone eligible to vote  should be denied their basic right. I was merely agreeing with Digs who suggested that the English electorate have got it seriously wrong in electing a Tory Government. I think that's because they've been misled and many voters have failed to recognise it, just as they did in the Brexit Referendum. Perhaps I'm not the most objective in either case, because my political position is slightly left of centre and I'm firmly pro-EU.

Isn't it ironic though, that if everyone voted in their own, narrow self-interests, the Tories would never get into power? Why do I say that? Because there are far more people at the poorer end of the social scale, whose needs have been neglected or  ignored by a succession of Tory Governments going back to Maggie Thatcher and beyond. Surely these people would have fared better under a Labour Government, even if Jeremy Corbyn is not everybody's cup of tea? (There was a former miner in the news who said he's voted Labour all his life until now. He voted Tory cos he wants Brexit done.) I would trust Corbyn before I'd trust Johnson, though that's not saying much.

Time will tell. I think we've reached an impasse in Scotland. Voters have clearly stated they do not want a Tory Government. Boris Johnson has said he will block a second Independence referendum. Nicola Sturgeon may take this to the courts. What happens if this appeal fails? It's likely that even more Scots will align themselves with the SNP in indignation. What then? A Catalunya-style uprising? Will Johnson send the troops up to Edinburgh to quell those rebellious Scots and arrest members of the Scottish cabinet?

 The will of the people cannot be suppressed indefinitely.

[Vinnie]

12 hours ago, Teuchter said:

Can't accuse you of inhabiting echo chambers that is for sure.

I think the response on here seemed fair enough. It is balanced in one sense, but in the conclusion, does happened to echo the Tory line. If that is what you believe that is what you believe.

I take it the forums where the rough responses came were a bit busier than here? I assume it was the Internet and not real life!

If it was this morning then the number of raw nerves would have been pretty high I think.

In real live have you encountered much of the toxic side of things?

I suppose the question is, how much of the toxic stuff is leaking into real life?

To be fair, its mainly on Facebook via friends of friends, and I would agree that it was mainly in the morning, and there could be an element of the response being a reaction to the result.

Do I believe my post? Im not sure. Im fed up of the toxicity of modern day politics. Although i guess its a good thing that folk are waking up to politics.

When I posted my comment I was playing Devils Advocate and offering a view to continue the thread. Elsewhere I was commenting on a post of a particularly staunch Nationalist work colleague.  

Offline, I would say that Nationalists are very vocal and very forceful about their views.  I think folk do dilute their views away from the keyboard. 

[Vinnie]

3 hours ago, GG Riva said:

You've misinterpreted my post, Vinnie. At no time was I suggesting that anyone eligible to vote  should be denied their basic right. I was merely agreeing with Digs who suggested that the English electorate have got it seriously wrong in electing a Tory Government. I think that's because they've been misled and many voters have failed to recognise it, just as they did in the Brexit Referendum. Perhaps I'm not the most objective in either case, because my political position is slightly left of centre and I'm firmly pro-EU.

Isn't it ironic thoigh, that if everyone voted in their own, narrow self-interests, the Tories would never get into power?

Im going to continue wearing my hard hat.  I often take an opposite view to stir the topic but also to try maybe understand if Im really missing something? 

So.... Im not sure you can say voters were misled - we saw the same tv clips and read the same news? 

Id suggest voters in different areas voted for their own localised issues which evidently appear to be different to ours. I read snippets from the Dunfermline Press and the Edinburgh Evening News and I know some of our local concerns, but I cant say Ive read Cardiff Courier, Doncaster Daily, Redcar Record or Northampton News to know what their issues are and how the Tories might suit them. 

I dont know if 1000 jobs were lost in Cardiff because EU funding was redirected to Slovakia pre Brexit.  I dont know if EU funding of a new car factory will see jobs moved from Redcar to Hungary. 

Potential reasons to distrust the EU? Potential reasons to vote Johnson in to get Brexit done? 

I guess my point is that just because you dont understand what has affected folk in Dorset or Caerphilly doesnt make them misinformed ****holes for holding a different view. 

[Guest The Beer Baron]

If that's all true, where's the funding coming from to save them post Brexit? Not from a Tory government who by all accounts want a free economy as per Adam Smith.

[GG Riva]

6 hours ago, Vinnie said:

Im going to continue wearing my hard hat.  I often take an opposite view to stir the topic but also to try maybe understand if Im really missing something? 

So.... Im not sure you can say voters were misled - we saw the same tv clips and read the same news? 

Id suggest voters in different areas voted for their own localised issues which evidently appear to be different to ours. I read snippets from the Dunfermline Press and the Edinburgh Evening News and I know some of our local concerns, but I cant say Ive read Cardiff Courier, Doncaster Daily, Redcar Record or Northampton News to know what their issues are and how the Tories might suit them. 

I dont know if 1000 jobs were lost in Cardiff because EU funding was redirected to Slovakia pre Brexit.  I dont know if EU funding of a new car factory will see jobs moved from Redcar to Hungary. 

Potential reasons to distrust the EU? Potential reasons to vote Johnson in to get Brexit done? 

I guess my point is that just because you dont understand what has affected folk in Dorset or Caerphilly doesnt make them misinformed ****holes for holding a different view. 

You've only quoted a part of my post (again) which completely alters the context. Last time you did it for a bit of banter. Not sure of your motives this time. 

Btw, I never called anyone voting Tory a "misinformed ****hole", unless you believe that's a synonym for gullible.

[Vinnie]

Quoted half your post as thats the part I was addressing in my reply.

I inserted the word ****holes on the basis of the ill will towards those considered misinformed 

[GG Riva]

2 hours ago, Vinnie said:

Quoted half your post as thats the part I was addressing in my reply.

I inserted the word ****holes on the basis of the ill will towards those considered misinformed 

Being selective in what you quote can lead to a flawed response. Was it your intention to misrepresent what I said? I hope not. Let's leave this sort of deception to the politicians  - they're past masters at it. ☺