Election

[SanguinePar]

What do we all think then? What's going to happen?

My head says a BJ majority of 40ish, but in my heart I'm clinging to hope that he may yet fall short.

I've been looking at a lot of polls and while the Tories lead Labour in them all, one thing that I've noticed is that when compared with the 2017 result the Tories are polling at basically the same level, up a little here, down a little there, but not a great deal of change.

Labour are generally down 7-10% on the 2017 - however if the Tories aren't gaining, then it's possible that there's a lot of very conscious tactical voting planned - and if that's the case, could it be that the Tories get a bloody nose?

If enough people are smart, it should be possible for Lab voters to go LD or SNP, and all the other combinations and take out a few otherwise safe Tories. Including our esteemed PM. I can't think of a more satisfying morning than finding out that he's lost his own seat.

Please Santa.

[Digs]

I don't see how polls can be accurate given the amount of tactical voting that is going to happen, look at the polls before the EU referendum and even the exit polls, none of them predicted a leave result.

I think, and I hope, that it will be a hung parliament with SNP able to support Labour, not sure if that would be part of an alliance with the likes of Plaid and Greens etc, or even if it would be a coalition(?) but that has to be the best hope as too many are not voting Labour in the south for irrelevant or even untrue reason. If Lib Dems had done the right thing 9 years ago and threw their hat in with Labour instead of the Tories, then we would not be in the mess we are in now and the thousands of people who are now foaming at the mouth about the evils of the EU would still be ignorant and/or completely ambivalent to it's existence. Therefore, that mob are not to be trusted. They should have been completely unelectable after Nick Clegg stabbing us all in  the back for the sake of power and a handful of relatively meaningless piece meal legislation being passed.  

I am dreading a Tory win though, I genuinely think it will be an absolute disaster for us all. 

[Vinnie]

Recent polls suggest that the Tories will get a majority however Im not keen to place my bets on polling information.  Polls suggested that we would remain in the EU, with a majority in the region of 55-60% of the vote, that was wildly inaccurate.. 

I think there will be a huge amount of tactical voting.  In my memory, this has been by far the most divisive vote.  In fact, I find so many folk on Facebook aggressively pressing their views, whilst failing to see alot of their hypocrisies.  In my opinion, regardless of the result tonight, I fear that the rifts between friends and families will last for another twenty or thirty years.  

 

My biggest issue is that folk claim to want to live in a democratic country, but dont want to abide by the results (moreso regarding the referendums) when they didnt get their own way.  

 

I think with that, in the case of the two referendums, no-one can predict the future, so campaigning was based on half truths, best guesses, and utopian ideals.  There is no modern-day precedent for Brexit, and the Withdrawal Agreement is only the start of years of further negotiations to complete the process.  

  

For me, as much as Johnson is a clown, I think he at least tells you his plan for Brexit.  Corbyn hasnt yet offered his true position on Brexit, which, lets face it, is the key issue at the minute - how can you elect a Prime Minister who has no clear vision?  I think that whilst Swanson is clear on stopping Brexit, I think they a bit hit and miss on everything else - Lib Dems are also going to suffer the backlash of their association with the Tories. 

Sturgeon wont win all 59 seats, but my issue there is that as leader of her party, she should also be the Leader in Westminster.    Sturgeon speaks positively about Scotland and our people and what we can achieve.  Blackford concentrates on blaming the English for kicking us down and playing a victim.  Blackford doesnt cut it for me, he's a abrasive and aggressive and his style seems very Salmond and/or Trump-esque, and alot of SNP supporters seem blinkered to that.

 

Im away to hide in  a fridge now...... 

[Piracy]

Corbyn has been consistent all his political career and has conducted himself with dignity throughout this campaign. 

He has a fully costed Manifesto and he's been clear in his intentions. 

Boris is a mumbling f***y with not one empathetic bone in his blubbering torso. 

The Tories are representing the hard right and they have caused this present fractious situation within the UK. It's a ****in disgrace and a tragedy. 

[Teuchter]

2 hours ago, Vinnie said:

My biggest issue is that folk claim to want to live in a democratic country, but dont want to abide by the results (moreso regarding the referendums) when they didnt get their own way.  

 

Just because you repeatedly post this doesn't make it any less of an utterly facile and stupid reading of things.

We live in a PARLIAMENTARY democracy and are not generally governed by the outcome of arbitrary and narrowly won plebiscites.

 

Edit - Workable Tory majority as the result.

[Digs]

3 hours ago, Vinnie said:

For me, as much as Johnson is a clown, I think he at least tells you his plan for Brexit.  Corbyn hasnt yet offered his true position on Brexit, which, lets face it, is the key issue at the minute - how can you elect a Prime Minister who has no clear vision?  I think that whilst Swanson is clear on stopping Brexit, I think they a bit hit and miss on everything else - Lib Dems are also going to suffer the backlash of their association with the Tories. 

See, this is something that annoys me because it's a non-argument about Corbyn. His position is crystal clear. 

He has said that in the event of him  winning, they will go back  to the EU with some different suggestions, negotiating on that basis (forget about them saying they won't negotiate further, they will, They mean they won't negotiate further on stance Johnson is operating under because no deal is bad all round, and Johnsons deal isn't much better) and then put that back to all of us, to make an INFORMED choice on what that deal should be and whether we still want it on those terms (or not as the case may be) based on the options they present to the EU.

He won't say what his stance is because as he has done his entire parliamentary career, he is listening to all sides and putting forward a proposal, for EVERYONE, including his detractors, to vote on, democratically, in an informed manner without his party or personal politics playing any part in it. That's his entire point. The Tories Brexit is NOT what anyone voted for, it's what Johnson, his party of right wing lunatics, and wealthy donors want to push through, it's not even what hard line Brexiters like Farage voted for.

I don't get what is so hard to understand about his position, it makes perfect sense to me. If, after all of that, people are still claiming that it's non-democratic to go and get some facts to vote on, to make an informed choice rather than a binary choice of leave/remain with no details as to what that exactly means, when we would still have Leave as an option on the table, then it proves to me that it's not about leaving  for a lot of people, its about being right, and not having the guts to hold their hands up and say, 'you know what? I was wrong'. Pride comes before a fall...

Someone standing up to people trying to force through legislation with no forethought to the consequences is not anti-democratic, and frankly, most normal folk like myself would rather be protected from the harm of idiots making choices on my families future based on nothing more than  the paper they read and the echo chambers they spend their time reading lies in. That is not my idea of deomocracy.

[GG Riva]

3 hours ago, Digs said:

I don't see how polls can be accurate given the amount of tactical voting that is going to happen, look at the polls before the EU referendum and even the exit polls, none of them predicted a leave result.

I think, and I hope, that it will be a hung parliament with SNP able to support Labour, not sure if that would be part of an alliance with the likes of Plaid and Greens etc, or even if it would be a coalition(?) but that has to be the best hope as too many are not voting Labour in the south for irrelevant or even untrue reason. If Lib Dems had done the right thing 9 years ago and threw their hat in with Labour instead of the Tories, then we would not be in the mess we are in now and the thousands of people who are now foaming at the mouth about the evils of the EU would still be ignorant and/or completely ambivalent to it's existence. Therefore, that mob are not to be trusted. They should have been completely unelectable after Nick Clegg stabbing us all in  the back for the sake of power and a handful of relatively meaningless piece meal legislation being passed.  

I am dreading a Tory win though, I genuinely think it will be an absolute disaster for us all. 

Like you, I'm hoping against hope that the Tories don't get a majority. There will be tactical voting for sure, but you confused me by slipping in the EU referendum in the same sentence. I take it that was an illustration of unpredictability rather than tactical voting? 🤔

[Digs]

12 minutes ago, GG Riva said:

Like you, I'm hoping against hope that the Tories don't get a majority. There will be tactical voting for sure, but you confused me by slipping in the EU referendum in the same sentence. I take it that was an illustration of unpredictability rather than tactical voting? 🤔

Aye, probably poorly worded on my part. 

[Teuchter]

[Vinnie]

I dont see Corbyn's position as crystal clear, and with the best will in the world, personal opinion does play a major part in how you negotiate a deal of this nature.  Look at the Teresa May, a Remainer, thrust into negotiating a deal that she doesnt really believe in.  

I think that, should we be offered a second referendum, and its equally close, we'll have another three or four years of Commons in-fighting, legal challenges, failed Bills.  

I do agree though, that the Brexit Withdrawal as it stands is different from what many of us might have envisaged it would be.  

[SanguinePar]

3 hours ago, Vinnie said:

For me, as much as Johnson is a clown, I think he at least tells you his plan for Brexit. 

"Get Brexit done" isn't a plan, it's as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit. It's designed for a mob to chant and to look good on a hat.

Even where BJ tells us more details of his 'plan', he then openly and repeatedly contradicts parts of it, especially in regard to Northern Ireland and goods checks.

If he had a clear plan he wouldn't refuse to do an interview with Andrew Neill (not to mention Susannah and Piers).

Come on Uxbridge and South Ruislip, toss this craven, mercenary ba**ard out on his a**e!

[Digs]

18 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

I dont see Corbyn's position as crystal clear, and with the best will in the world, personal opinion does play a major part in how you negotiate a deal of this nature.  Look at the Teresa May, a Remainer, thrust into negotiating a deal that she doesnt really believe in.  

By that rationale then, it should be a piece of **** for Corbyn since he's always been against the EU and voted to Leave. That's the entire point, it's not his job to inflict his opinion on us all, it's his job to make sure he protects the decision  made by us, and gets the best deal FOR us, and having a peoples vote with options, Leave still being one of them, he is being clear to everyone involved.

This is the problem, people can't seem to get their head around the fact that a leader might actually have some principles and not just do what's best for him personally, his party or his or his donors. It's precisely that stance that sees him constantly at loggerheads with his own party who want the party put first. 

[Vinnie]

5 minutes ago, Digs said:

This is the problem, people can't seem to get their head around the fact that a leader might actually have some principles and not just do what's best for him personally, his party or his or his donors. It's precisely that stance that sees him constantly at loggerheads with his own party who want the party put first. 

I dont believe he has principles.  I guess thats the bottom line on my view of him, that I simply dont trust the guy.  In the same way that I dont believe in the motives of many politicians. 

15 minutes ago, SanguinePar said:

If he had a clear plan he wouldn't refuse to do an interview with Andrew Neill (not to mention Susannah and Piers).

Come on Uxbridge and South Ruislip, toss this craven, mercenary ba**ard out on his a**e!

I wouldnt entertain an interview with Piers Morgan.  Its fair enough to call someone out on their bull****, but at least let them finish a bull**** statement first, and then pick it apart.  The trouble is that Piers Morgan comes across as a Grade A bellend if BJ is unable to  speak enough to dig his own grave. 

[Digs]

2 minutes ago, Vinnie said:

I dont believe he has principles.  I guess thats the bottom line on my view of him, that I simply dont trust the guy. 

Based on?

[Vinnie]

I cant put it down to anything in particular, so lets just put it down to gut feeling?  You either like someone or you dont.  Maybe it is just as simple as that?  

I will give him his due though - I do think that some services should be re-nationalised.  As a service, the rail network, for example, was far more efficient in days gone by, whereas now they are a disgrace.