SanguinePar Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 On 09/06/2018 at 13:02, Vinnie said: He promised to shake up politics and hes done exactly that. He has come good on promises. That buys him credit. Hes changed the news cycle every day or so, yesterdays screw up is forgotten. He stood up to North Korea and thats a big win, its a show of American strength. Hes bought more credit that the odd slip up can be forgotten. Republicans hold all the power in Congress too and force through policy quickly rather than the delays Obama faced as a Democrat fighting Republicans. Trump is the figurehead Americans see making changes quickly and apparently decisively.... its what you expect of your President - swift action, a show of power and strength. He hasn't really stood up to NK (which in itself is a bizarre notion, given the disparity in wealth, size, military might etc). He's acted like an utter buffoon, inflaming a hugely volatile situation and has now lucked into the fact that NK has suddenly come to the table because their nuclear tests caused their own nuclear test facility to collapse. They have no bargaining chip anymore. Republicans haven't been forcing policy through either, at least not marquee legislation. The ACA is still in place, the Wall isn't agreed, let alone funded (oh wait, Mexico is paying, right?), the Muslim ban is repeatedly rejected by the courts. The only changes Trump has made quickly have been in damaging decades of international relations by openly attacking allies, while cosying up to brutal dictators like Putin and Xi Jinping. He has also gone back on his America First rhetoric, for example with his comments and actions in relation to ZTE (by complete coincidence, just days after his daughter was awarded a series of trademarks from the Chinese government). He has also personally enriched himself by spending so much time on the golf course, at resorts he owns and is charging the government for. And all that is before you even get to his election campaign's huge, multi tentacled links to Russia, and his repeated attempts to delegitimise the investigation into it, despite the 20 or so indictments and five guilty pleas so far. As for your point@Teuchterre how he leaves office. In general I would agree, but by that argument Nixon should have stayed in office until the next election too. There are certain points where action is needed, despite the risks. Finally, I shouldn't have said he rigged the system, but the GOP itself certainly has recent form in gerrymandering voter districts and trying to suppress the vote of people likely to vote against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 10 hours ago, SanguinePar said: Republicans haven't been forcing policy through either, at least not marquee legislation. Not the point. Legislation signed into force, big photo opportunity, win.... Legislation signing, big photo opportunity, big smiles, win.... Legislation signed, photo opportunity, big smiles, a handshake, win.... Lots of little wins to massive fanfare will convince some folk that he is doing a decent job. He'll be remember as a successful President by Americans, because he is seen to be getting things done, which is what a President is supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 17 minutes ago, Vinnie said: Not the point. Legislation signed into force, big photo opportunity, win.... Legislation signing, big photo opportunity, big smiles, win.... Legislation signed, photo opportunity, big smiles, a handshake, win.... Lots of little wins to massive fanfare will convince some folk that he is doing a decent job. He'll be remember as a successful President by Americans, because he is seen to be getting things done, which is what a President is supposed to do. What exactly is he getting done? Other than a massive and self-beneficial tax cut? EDIT: As of December he had the worst record of passing legislation of any president at that stage of his presidency (since WW2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 I dont remember specifics - what it is or isn't doesn't matter - weve seen him sit on a number of occasions, pen in hand, scribbling his name, big smile, big handshakes, photo opportunity. Its all about perception. You mention the Muslim Ban being blocked at court - if I was a Trump supporter, Id be citing that this was in his first 100 days and that he's allowed a "Honeymoon period", that he was still learning his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vinnie said: I dont remember specifics - what it is or isn't doesn't matter - weve seen him sit on a number of occasions, pen in hand, scribbling his name, big smile, big handshakes, photo opportunity. Its all about perception. You mention the Muslim Ban being blocked at court - if I was a Trump supporter, Id be citing that this was in his first 100 days and that he's allowed a "Honeymoon period", that he was still learning his job. He's learning that threatening discriminatory and illegal bans on people based on their religion is a good way to win the presidency, but not something you can actually deliver on. As for legislation, see my previous edit. Yes, we've seen him sit there pen in hand, but as you say that's perception. It's not reality in terms of fact or meaning - as the linked article says, among the bills he has actually passed are the likes of ”the official naming of a federal courthouse in Tennessee or a commemorative coin for the American Legion” #GettingThingsDone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, SanguinePar said: As for legislation, see my previous edit. Yes, we've seen him sit there pen in hand, but as you say that's perception. It's not reality in terms of fact or meaning - as the linked article says, among the bills he has actually passed are the likes of ”the official naming of a federal courthouse in Tennessee or a commemorative coin for the American Legion” #GettingThingsDone So you've kind of proved my point. I haven't bothered to look into what he's actually done - its America, doesn't really affect my daily life greatly. However I see the reports and the pictures, all the little things look like getting things done. As I say, it doesn't matter that he's named a courthouse, its done with all the fanfare and high fives like he's won the Superbowl, and you want your leader to be getting things done. I don't know, maybe previous Presidents just got things done without the fanfare?... Maybe Trump needs the fanfare because he's aware that he wasn't the majority choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Vinnie said: So you've kind of proved my point. I haven't bothered to look into what he's actually done - its America, doesn't really affect my daily life greatly. However I see the reports and the pictures, all the little things look like getting things done. As I say, it doesn't matter that he's named a courthouse, its done with all the fanfare and high fives like he's won the Superbowl, and you want your leader to be getting things done. I don't know, maybe previous Presidents just got things done without the fanfare?... Maybe Trump needs the fanfare because he's aware that he wasn't the majority choice? Of course, that's exactly why he is always talking himself up - his fragility and ego is such that he needs constant reaffirmation, in spite of the lack of any real substance or integrity. It absolutely matters that he hasn't achieved much, and it's important that he is scrutinised and kept in check, especially given his character and extremely dodgy alliances both now and in the past. I would suggest that what happens in America very substantially affects you and all of us going forward, not least because our own government's laughably inept management of Brexit is going to put us all at the mercy of countries like the US. And even if it didn't affect us, it affects millions of Americans who are sleepwalking into a dictatorship - witness Trump's relentless delegitimisation of the media, his stated desire to do away with some of Congress's powers to block his legislation, his absolute rejection of compromise or consensus, his repeated firing of anyone in his administration who disagrees with him, his open call for Russia to hack a political opponent, his endless, shameless lies about even the most inconsequential thing, and most of all his open contempt for a free and independent justice department coupled with his flagrant attempts to obstruct justice. He appears to want his America to resemble Putin's Russia - an oligarchy of suppressed dissent, massively centralised power and political corruption. This is something that everyone should be concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, SanguinePar said: I would suggest that what happens in America very substantially affects you and all of us going forward, not least because our own government's laughably inept management of Brexit is going to put us all at the mercy of countries like the US. You've taken what I said slightly out of context there. Day to day local/national American issues don't affect me, you, us. Of course, there is a greater concern internationally. No-one is denying that. I'd actually forgotten about the Muslim Ban. Trump and his Press Office are very good at keeping the news cycle moving. A defeat will be forgotten in a few days, but I continue to recall the images of the smug-******* grin down a camera lens. And the point remains that perception is everything to the Americans he is trying to impress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Vinnie said: You've taken what I said slightly out of context there. Day to day local/national American issues don't affect me, you, us. Of course, there is a greater concern internationally. No-one is denying that. I'd actually forgotten about the Muslim Ban. Trump and his Press Office are very good at keeping the news cycle moving. A defeat will be forgotten in a few days, but I continue to recall the images of the smug-******* grin down a camera lens. And the point remains that perception is everything to the Americans he is trying to impress. Ah fair enough, sorry. Hopefully his continued efforts to appeal solely this base will erode any lingering support for him among the remaining sane 66%. You should check out this Reddit thread on negative impacts Trump has had on people's lives. Anecdotal of course, but thoroughly depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Our own sensationalist media dont help. They are heralding Trump and Kim as making history, heaping praise on two of the worlds most intolerable (change intolerable to ****y if you want) cretins. Somebody somewhere is putting Trumps name forward for the Nobel Peace Prize... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 11 hours ago, Vinnie said: Our own sensationalist media dont help. They are heralding Trump and Kim as making history, heaping praise on two of the worlds most intolerable (change intolerable to ****y if you want) cretins. Somebody somewhere is putting Trumps name forward for the Nobel Peace Prize... Someone whose name starts with T and ends with rump, I think :-) You're right about the media hyping this - ina way it is a genuinely amazing moment, but from what I can tell, it's not really a success for Trump. Firstly, it's more or less what was already agreed with the SK government. Secondly, he has committed to stopping army exercises in the area, while Kim has only committed to moving towards denuclearisation. And thirdly, it makes my stomach turn to see Trump all pally with the head of a brutal dictatorship, just a few days after he attacked long-standing allies and kicked off a global trade war. I did also see a suggestion that part of the deal may have been to ease foreign investment in NK, in areas including hotel resorts. Not that Trump would have any personal interest in that, obviously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 There is an astonishing contradiction about everything that's happened this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Vinnie said: There is an astonishing contradiction about everything that's happened this week. Yep. Also, I've just seen this remarkable admission from the master negotiator... "I may be wrong, I mean I may stand before you in six months and say, 'Hey I was wrong,'" Trump said at a press conference after his historic meeting with Kim. "I don't know that I'll ever admit that, but I'll find some kind of an excuse," Trump added. Jesus. Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted June 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 If you go back to that initial article about how he has to win at everything, that really wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinePar Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, Vinnie said: If you go back to that initial article about how he has to win at everything, that really wouldn't surprise me. Yep. Go, Bob Mueller, go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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