Update from the club tonight

[Digs]

9 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Taking this into massive consideration there’s a lot of good things said ,  but generally it has made my uneasy feeling about the boards/the investment groups mindset worse.  It just seems like there’s too much talk over identity or philosophy even when they acknowledge it’s to the detriment of what should be the full focus of the club which is winning games and making the club successful on the pitch.    Being a club with a reputation for being good is so much more important than being known for showing good sportsmanship as an example.

Thanks for the summary.

Do they acknowledge it’s to the detriment of the club? If I gave that impression I didn’t mean to. As I said, they’ve made the point it has benefitted the team and the players are all onboard and listening to the Manager, he is enthusiastic about it. To be clear, I t’s not a gimmick, it’s about creating the right atmosphere with lots of positives but the main one being it will benefit the team.

[Grant]

I'd rather have a team of ****ehouses if it meant we got promoted. 

Far rather three points than a loss/draw and a patronising pat on the head etc. 

[Rossmcno1]

It’s as you would expect from this group, absolutely about building a long term vision which then becomes self sustainable.  A club that becomes an aspiration for players to join at that level  rather than just another piddling barely full time club.  
 

14 minutes ago, Grant said:

I'd rather have a team of ****ehouses if it meant we got promoted. 

Far rather three points than a loss/draw and a patronising pat on the head etc. 

But that’s probably what every other club in Scotland is trying to do, to be fair.  I like we’re going to try and be a bit different.  Will be interesting to see how it all goes.

[Grant]

12 minutes ago, Rossmcno1 said:

It’s as you would expect from this group, absolutely about building a long term vision which then becomes self sustainable.  A club that becomes an aspiration for players to join at that level  rather than just another piddling barely full time club.  
 

But that’s probably what every other club in Scotland is trying to do, to be fair.  I like we’re going to try and be a bit different.  Will be interesting to see how it all goes.

Well, using the two clubs mentioned in the original post it doesn't bode well does it? 

FGR relegated having finished dead last in the season just finished, and St Pauli despite having this massive global fanbase, have spent 2? Seasons in the bundesliga since the millennium. How does this vision actually transfer into success? If they are talking about Midtjylland it's some reach to say that because of there educational programme they're now selling players for twenty million plus. There's two words why Midtjylland are selling players for that, Matthew Benham,the best football owner in the UK. 

I spent a bit of time living in England and went to a load of Brentford games and still get down to them when I can, Benham brings success by going deep into analytics, not be being ultra sportsmanlike or any tosh like that. 

 

As for being an inspiration to join, if we were in the Premier we'd be a big inspiration to join! How's about we just stick to winning games eh? 

[Stanza]

Superb summaries from Digs and Piracy - it saves me writing anything for my own DADSC "constituency" in DADSC - I'll just refer them to this thread!

The only thing I might add is David Cook's comment that if a club has a defined and unique identity that is part of the club's DNA (such as Forest Green, Skt Pauli or Midtjylland) there is a chance it will punch well above its weight and also become a commercially much more successful operation. And if that identity is one that is considered by most (but never all) football fans to be desirable, then it will be sustainable and perhaps eventually a catalyst for change in football more widely. (EG Forest Green play in a village with a population of 6000 but have been recognised by FIFA and the UN for their green ethic.) The Board are under no illusions that this is a short term project, it will involve many years of effort and commitment. 

To confirm, there was absolutely no suggestion from the Board or Manager that the pursuit of this approach would or should be to the detriment of results on the pitch, although inevitably a few defeats on the bounce would undoubtedly get some people blaming them on the Board's philosophy. The aim is still to win - but not at the cost of our reputation.

 

[Grant]

3 hours ago, Digs said:

Tonight myself and @Piracy, along with other supporters groups attended a Supporters Group meeting in the Boardroom. I didn't put a thread up before like I usually do as this was a slightly different format than usual with very limited opportunity to ask questions (we got a couple in) as they wanted to present something to us and get feedback on a presentation called Living True Sportsmanship, more on that later...

In attendance from the club were James McPake, David Cook, Nick Teller, Thomas Meggle and Damir Keretic. Firstly DC gave a couple of quick updates, one on transfers. They have a few irons in the fire, and gave the usual message of working very hard still to get guys in. David Wotherspoon is training with the club, but wasn't when McPake was asked about it. They hope to have another deal concluded tomorrow in time for Saturday. I assume this to be Wotherspoon, as both David Cook and the Manager both said the Fletcher rumour was just that, and it was news to them, and both seemed genuinely surprised, so I believe them.

The Manager and Thomas Meggle reiterated the strategy that it's not just about bringing guys in, or them being so much better than what we have. It's about the right fit, have to be good people as well as good players. They don't necessarily have to be head and shoulders above the players we have. All same old, same old as before. 

However, Meggle did elaborate on the strategy of squad size. They took a calculated risk of running the squad a little lighter than other teams for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they acknowledge it was absolutely a risk in case we got injuries, which we are now seeing. DC made a good point that three of them have just been bad luck as they were contact injuries. Nothing to do with the training pitches, or fitness. Just knocks that you get in contact sports. The reason behind taking that risk though is they absolutely want to leave room for the young guys. The believe in the ones we have and want to create an environment where other players can see they will get their chance but it is a fine balance between doing that and having the right squad. Having said that the manager reiterated he is happy with where we are just now and comfortable with the group he has, even if he acknowledges the injuries have caused a bit of an issue.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want players in, they have been working for months, but the quality they are after have been snapped up. Our top three targets we'd identified at the end of the season in April, were signed by Oremier League teams. We've narrowly missed out on a few more, but he stressed the fact we managed to get in Otoo, Fisher and KRH was just as important and they want to be a team where players from other clubs see they can come here on loan, and are desperate to come back. The manager cited Harry Sharp who signed today as an example with him being on the phone out the manager for the last six months due to Sam Fisher raving about how good the club is, which is exactly what they want to see.

They reiterated that their strategy for progress remains the same in that they aren't going to talk publicly like some other teams *cough* Falkirk*cough about we'll do this and we'll do that. We have short term targets and long term targets. We have an initial target always winning the next game, then reaching the target of 40 points this season which should see us comfortable, then once that is achieved, attack the next objective, which will be determined by when and how that happens but for now "just win the next ****ing game".

Season Tickets sales they are delighted about. As of today it sits at 3418, last year at the same time it was 2500. They can see a real difference from us the supporters in that we are really buying into what they are trying to do. In regards to kit sales, they have sold 2.5 as many kits as they did last year and they recognised that everyone's expectation of matchday experience may not be the same and so they are trying to engage as many different experiences for as many people as they can. 

They again gave credit to the NW and said that is nothing to do with them, it's all the fans, which they love. They have sold it out and made it what it is.

Damir Keretic said that he showed footage of our away crowds at Falkirk to friends in Germany who couldn't believe it was an away game and thought "it was so cool". 

Thomas Meggle said it was clear there was disconnect with the fans after relegation and after covid, and they wanted to fix it. So they decided to go with the ethos for the squad shape and size as mentioned above but getting young local guys in the team was key to this, like Matty Todd, Chris Hamilton, Paul Allen Lewis McCann, guys who came through the youth teams and who live in the area. It irritated him that when he asked about the squad he was told about the 'Glasgow car' the 'Dundee car' etc. They wanted more guys visible in the town who wanted to be here, not guys who only came here because they were getting an extra £50 a week. 

He said they want 2-3 more quality players in but with the players they are after, a lot of premier teams aren't making their decisions yet and it's affecting their decisions, but this will pass and we will be able to get the deals done that we want soon, as well as the offers we have out just now.

In regards to Rosyth, planning permission has now been granted but they are now in the process of coming up with a revised costing as prices have changed wildly since this started. Once that's done, it will be a phased development.

Now, the purpose of the meeting...

The wanted to present their Vision for the Football Club, ie why they wanted to get involved in the first place. 

The presentation was lengthy and I wouldn't be able to do it justice if I tired to summarise every slide and I don't want to muddy the message so I'll try and briefly explain it as best I can, and more will follow from the club. This isn't something that will happen tomorrow, next week, next month or even next year. It's an ongoing process to build on our identity to create something bigger for the club, and community. 

It's often been said that they specifically chose us for our community values and inclusivity. This stemmed from the 2018 World Cup and they were discussing the amount of play acting, rolling around and frankly cheating that was going on to try and win games and how it was generally seeping into football and they thought, what if we could find a club who thinks the same way as us, all about community, inclusivity, belonging and try and bring that to life within a club to make them known not only for what they do on the field in regards to fairness, respect, and playing the game in the right manner whilst developing that spirit generally within the community too?...

So after speaking to multiple European clubs, having them sign an NDA so they wouldn't go off and use the ideas themselves, they came across Dunfermline and opened discussions and here they are...

Essentially, they have core values of Fairness, Accountability, Determination. They showed a montage of clips from the Bundesliga, and other sporting events where players were examples of great sportsmanship. They want our club to live and breath by these values. It's not about being soft, it's not about bending over, they essentially want us to be hard but fair by showing the right attitude to each other, the rest of the staff, opposition, not getting involved in violence, claiming for things that clearly weren't ours, surrounding the referee etc. 

It was generally agreed in the room that these are already showing benefit with the togetherness in the squad, but it hasn't made us soft, but the opposite, it's made us more resilient to challenges. 

They cited a couple of examples who have created a public identity for themselves in Forest Green Rovers for their sustainability model, and what that has done for their turnover, St Pauli are another obvious one, (although it was pointed out that they absolutely do NOT want to emulate St Pauli's political stance, that's not what it's about)and there was another club in Denmark I think(?) who are from a town with 6000 people who run joint educational programmes at home and in Africa and are now selling players for £25m. 

This is obviously a very long term project and is an ethos, a belief, an identity, and won't happen overnight and I have simplified this hugely as there is much more to this, involving all the stakeholders involved with the club, players, staff, volunteers, fans, the local community because as I said, I don't want to do it a dis-service. More is going to follow from the club.

If anyone has any questions, I'll try and answer them, but I would urge everyone not to form an opinion based on what I've said solely as I have simplified it quite a bit. Tonight was about getting feedback on the presentation and they will tweak it based on that and release it soon.

 

Massive thanks to Digs for the fantastic summary btw, but there's a few things which are just nagging me. 

"Our top three targets we'd identified at the end of the season in April, were signed by Oremier League teams." 

If as rumoured this was O'Reilly, who went to Dundee, surely it wasn't a shock that he signed for them, seing as he'd been training with them for months? It's all fine and well saying we're targeting good players, but if they're unattainable then what good is that? We can't compete with Premier league clubs, if our targets are going there we need to lower our standards and look at the players our fellow championship clubs are getting. Partick have signed Tomi Adeloye, Kerr McInroy and Ben Williamson, Ayr have Murphy, Raith went out and got Mullin and Hamilton. All of those players would've been great signings. Maybe they should have been our top targets? 

"Rosyth" 

This hasn't half dragged on eh? I remember at the meeting where John Hughes was introduced they wanted it ready for last pre season. Doesn't sound good at all. 

"claiming for things that clearly weren't ours, surrounding the referee etc." 

One of the best moments from last season, if not the best moment from last season was the Rhys Breen goal against Falkirk, I, along with a few thousand other Pars fans went mental claiming for it despite not being sure (and video footage later showing it didn't) if it crossed the line. Did we just skip these values then? Should we have let Falkirk up the park to equalise? 

 

"Thomas Meggle said it was clear there was disconnect with the fans after relegation..." 

 

This whole paragraph is just utter, utter pish. Hughes played and gave new contracts to McCann, Todd and Allan. There was still a disconnect, you know why? Because we were absolutely stinking the place out getting bloody relegated. Because our board were appointing belters like Grant and Hughes. We didn't get a great connection because Chris Hamilton grew up in Crossgates, the fans loved the players last season because we were winning games and beating Falkirk. KRH is English, who we got from a team in Glasgow, and despite these insurmountable differences he was one of, if not the most popular fans favourite. Maybe because he's really good at football?! 

If we can get a few more KRHs by paying them 50 quid a week more I'd be absolutely fine with them commuting from Glasgow/Dundee. It sounds like we're needlessly limiting out pool of available transfers with idealistic nonsense you'd expect from a teenager, this is a job at the end of the day for the players, let's not insult them eh? 

 

I've already talked about the clubs, neither FGR or St Pauli have been very successful on the pitch, why we're trying to emulate them I don't know.

 

Ach,when we got these new guys I was really excited for what they'd do to the clubs in terms of really bringing on the recruitment side of things, maybe the occasional unknown gem. 

As it is we don't want to sign anyone who lives to far away from West Fife and we're now talking about club ethos and other, quite frankly nonsensical things when what really matters is putting a winning side on the pitch on a Saturday. 

[Grant]

16 minutes ago, Stanza said:

Superb summaries from Digs and Piracy - it saves me writing anything for my own DADSC "constituency" in DADSC - I'll just refer them to this thread!

The only thing I might add is David Cook's comment that if a club has a defined and unique identity that is part of the club's DNA (such as Forest Green, Skt Pauli or Midtjylland) there is a chance it will punch well above its weight 

 

I just don't get it. This is nonsense. 

Vance took over FGR in the conference, after a considerable investment they are now in league two, one tier higher. 

St Pauli have played in the Bundesliga twice this millennium. 

Midtjylland are where they are after considerable investment from MB, you know what he doesn't do? Limit recruitment to whoever lives nearby. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-midtjylland/rekordabgaenge/verein/865

That's there record departures, in the top seven how many are Danish? How many lived local? Do you think they succeeded due to an educational programme, or because Mathew Benham is a genius in Mathematics who has a database of thousands, upon thousands of players with an insane amount of metrics that he then uses to buy, and sell on players? 

Benham bought Midtjylland to test out various things he would then go on to perfect at Brentford. 

Benham had previously worked with Tony Bloom, another mathematical genius with his own dateabse on players. Have we checked to see if Brighton or Brentford have any community based engagements that we can credit with there clubs success? And just skip over the actual reason why those clubs are successful? 

[SanguinePar]

4 hours ago, Digs said:

Essentially, they have core values of Fairness, Accountability, Determination.

And will we be sticking to this, or is it just a FAD? ;-)

Sounds good, thanks @Digs and @Piracy for the extensive notes.

I hope the club will be putting full details (ideally the ful presentation) onto the site for all to see, as it sounds interesting. That said, I do agree with @Grant that a lot of it sounds very aspirational and worthy but not necessarily very realistic or effective.

Not sure about the notion of the Norrie as a family stand - I really wish football would get over this idea of everything having to be "family friendly", I just don't see it as realistic.

I also think that if this has any major implications (and it may not, of course), then it should have been talked about publicly before STs went on sale. By implications, I'm thinking of, for example, more of a crackdown on strong language, perhaps the presence of Sammy in the Stand, that sort of thing. As someone who's in the Norrie, I'd not really welcome that, so I'll be keeping an eye out to see what's meant by it.

 

[Stanza]

I think there is a danger in taking individual elements or comments from a wide-ranging presentation and discussion, and then rejecting the whole proposition out of hand based on them. I would say the same about the danger of accepting the whole package based on an individual element or comment that one finds acceptable. The package has to be viewed as a whole, and it will be up to the club to roll it out in a manner that is convincing.

It's also fair to say that the Board seem to recognise that in a long-term project like this there are bound to be changes, tweaks and developments as circumstances change - especially in the formative stage I am sure they would welcome feedback from anyone who feels strongly on any aspect of the package.

[GG Riva]

Well done, Digs and Piracy. Fantastic effort. I feel like I was at the meeting myself  after reading their summaries. 🙂

[Piracy]

5 hours ago, SanguinePar said:

And will we be sticking to this, or is it just a FAD? ;-)

Sounds good, thanks @Digs and @Piracy for the extensive notes.

I hope the club will be putting full details (ideally the ful presentation) onto the site for all to see, as it sounds interesting. That said, I do agree with @Grant that a lot of it sounds very aspirational and worthy but not necessarily very realistic or effective.

Not sure about the notion of the Norrie as a family stand - I really wish football would get over this idea of everything having to be "family friendly", I just don't see it as realistic.

I also think that if this has any major implications (and it may not, of course), then it should have been talked about publicly before STs went on sale. By implications, I'm thinking of, for example, more of a crackdown on strong language, perhaps the presence of Sammy in the Stand, that sort of thing. As someone who's in the Norrie, I'd not really welcome that, so I'll be keeping an eye out to see what's meant by it.

 

Every thing we do is aspirational. You have aspiration if you're ambitious, which naturally feeds your motivation to succeed. That's pretty effective in most walks of life. 

I don't think the club should have thrown this out there. That'd have caused mayhem due the high potential for misinterpretation. 

They're looking to develop their vision into a strategy over time, an ethos that helps define our club. Part of our identity, determination, accountability, integrity, surely values worth implementing. It is a vision, it'll take years to implement before it becomes an inherent part of the clubs culture.

No one is saying that we suddenly sanatise the whole stadium. They're not looking for that and no one said that. They said they're creating a family section in part of the Norrie. I think in a big stand like that, it makes sense. They're catering for a section of the fan base, which is what they do for disabled supporters, the more verciferous element in the NW, those of a more corporate mind, and so on. 

It's worth mentioning that the atmosphere in the ground has improved dramatically under their tenureship. I can tell you they're proud of that. As I said in my listed post, one of the board told a quick story about showing a video of our support in full swing after beating Falkirk to some German associates, who were football fans. His words were 'they were amazed', therefore naturally intetested. I love the thought of growing interest in our club beyond the boundaries of West Fife. The Board are right behind a noisy and passionate stadium.

I think their belief in bringing through young local laddies also strengthens our bond between team and support. That's utopia for any club like us if you can manage it properly. We're not doing too badly so far. 

Lots to be positive about, but you're correct about keeping an eye out, I think we should always do that. 

[Piracy]

8 hours ago, Grant said:

I'd rather have a team of ****ehouses if it meant we got promoted. 

Far rather three points than a loss/draw and a patronising pat on the head etc. 

I'd rather we stayed away from '****ehouses' and worked with a team of bonded players working their socks off for each other if it means we get promotion. 

You can gain 3 points being hard but fair, resilient and organised. Like we were last season, which got us promoted. 

[DA-go Par Adonis]

Dunfermline is an expanding city.  The aspiration has to be to get a larger proportion of people who live within a 10 mile radius of EEP to actually go to the games.

It's a big job, especially with the amount of Hibs, Hearts, Celtic or Rangers fans who have come to stay here due to the housing being more affordable than Edinburgh.  It's an issue that every provincial club faces and no-one in Scotland has really managed to successfully increase their fan base.  The one certain thing is that we won't manage it by doing the same things that we and every other club has tried so far.

I welcome the fact that they have a vision and some ideas as to how to make progress.  Not sure it will work, but it seems worth supporting to me.

Re the players, it sound like they would like them to live in the area and be available to participate in some of the community initiatives.  It also seems that they want a pathway for local talent to break through into the first team, but not that they won't spread the net wider than our own doorstep.

Re Midtjylland, St Pauli, Forest Green - it seems as though they were used as examples of clubs doing things differently rather than suggesting we use their methods as the rigid template to work from. 

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, Piracy said:

I'd rather we stayed away from '****ehouses' and worked with a team of bonded players working their socks off for each other if it means we get promotion. 

You can gain 3 points being hard but fair, resilient and organised. Like we were last season, which got us promoted. 

They aren’t mutually exclusive, there’s plenty ****houses who are loved by their own team mates and work hard on the pitch.

If there’s a blatant dive to win us a penalty that gets given and we score to win the league do you honestly think anyone is going to be saying bad things against the diver? Are they ****, he’s going to be right amongst the celebrations. Fans of other clubs can moan as much as they want, we can wave our medals in their face and laugh. 

[Rossmcno1]

8 hours ago, Grant said:

Well, using the two clubs mentioned in the original post it doesn't bode well does it? 

FGR relegated having finished dead last in the season just finished, and St Pauli despite having this massive global fanbase, have spent 2? Seasons in the bundesliga since the millennium. How does this vision actually transfer into success? If they are talking about Midtjylland it's some reach to say that because of there educational programme they're now selling players for twenty million plus. There's two words why Midtjylland are selling players for that, Matthew Benham,the best football owner in the UK. 

I spent a bit of time living in England and went to a load of Brentford games and still get down to them when I can, Benham brings success by going deep into analytics, not be being ultra sportsmanlike or any tosh like that. 

 

As for being an inspiration to join, if we were in the Premier we'd be a big inspiration to join! How's about we just stick to winning games eh? 

FGR who nobody had heard of until the last couple of years and St Pauli who plenty of people have heard of maybe are correct examples of clubs either punching above their weight on the park, or reputation in a global sense.  Also think it’s a stretch to try and compare the Bundesliga to the Scottish top flight.  
 

What I’ve interpreted it as is a philosophy that isn’t winning at all costs, it’s long term winning the right way with the right behaviours that makes it more of a club with positive ethos that grows as such.  Not just short termism which can be easily replicated.