Transfer window

[Rossmcno1]

2 minutes ago, Digs said:

So the answer is abandon their ten year plan for short termism? That makes no sense. The two things aren't mutually exclusive and I'm pretty sure they aren't just hoping for the best. Do people not remember where we were chucking good money after bad chasing a pipe dream?

Clearly the team needs bodies. That doesn;t mean an entire business plan should be chucked out the window in the hope that we might get some extra money from being promoted. Being promoted would absolutely not have been the target at the start of the season, they are far more conservative and patient than we are clearly. We are currently 4 points off the playoff, with a game in hand and playing the team currently in fourth on Saturday with 17 games to go. Realistic talk of relegation is knee jerk nonsense.

We're closer to the playoffs than we are relegation so people need to stop wetting their knickers and calm down. Our support is so bipolar it's ridiculous. Win a couple of games we're talking about catching 3rd, lose a couple then we're in a relegation battle. It's a crazy way of thinking. 

Sorry Digs, always enjoy reading your posts but disagree with you here.  
 

Right now with our list of long term injuries, form, and current win total and points tally v the rest of the teams below us, its hard to understand how anyone can say it’s knee jerk nonsense to have a fear of being in a relegation battle.  Especially with some of our performances on the park recently, we’ve been pretty awful.  
 

Some would say it’s a dose of reality that our team after a fairly decent start, has been found wanting by not scoring enough goals and losing too many.  Hardly fantasy land right now to look at all the factors of this season right now and think…..may be trouble ahead.
 

 

[Grant]

12 minutes ago, Digs said:

So the answer is abandon their ten year plan for short termism? That makes no sense. The two things aren't mutually exclusive and I'm pretty sure they aren't just hoping for the best. Do people not remember where we were chucking good money after bad chasing a pipe dream?

Clearly the team needs bodies. That doesn;t mean an entire business plan should be chucked out the window in the hope that we might get some extra money from being promoted. Being promoted would absolutely not have been the target at the start of the season, they are far more conservative and patient than we are clearly. We are currently 4 points off the playoff, with a game in hand and playing the team currently in fourth on Saturday with 17 games to go. Realistic talk of relegation is knee jerk nonsense.

We're closer to the playoffs than we are relegation so people need to stop wetting their knickers and calm down. Our support is so bipolar it's ridiculous. Win a couple of games we're talking about catching 3rd, lose a couple then we're in a relegation battle. It's a crazy way of thinking. 

Sorry but I'm not sure I agree with a few points on this. 

For one the ten year plan I find hard to grasp, for one unless I've missed it where is this 10 year plan and what points do we have at various points to measure it's success? And where are we in relation to it? 

I don't understand how realistic talk of relegation is a knee jerk reaction either, this league has always been tight. Even when we were fourth we weren't a million miles away from the relegation playoffs (might even have been closer to 9th than 3rd?). As well as that a few weeks ago it seemed like the injuries were clearing up, going into that Arbroath game we thought we were nearly there with regards to the squad with Bene due back very soon. 

However since that Arbroath games we've lost Todd, McCann, Breen, Otoo, Comrie, Bene, McCann and Jakubaik. While Hamilton, Wighton and Summers are playing with injuries, the results and performances have reflected that. It's not reactionary to be worrying about relegation when you can't field 11 fit senior players and you're only 6 points away from it. 

[da_no_1]

Can't disagree with any of that Grant. One of the delights of the championship is constantly looking over your shoulder....

[Digs]

55 minutes ago, Rossmcno1 said:

Sorry Digs, always enjoy reading your posts but disagree with you here.  
 

Right now with our list of long term injuries, form, and current win total and points tally v the rest of the teams below us, its hard to understand how anyone can say it’s knee jerk nonsense to have a fear of being in a relegation battle.  Especially with some of our performances on the park recently, we’ve been pretty awful.  
 

Some would say it’s a dose of reality that our team after a fairly decent start, has been found wanting by not scoring enough goals and losing too many.  Hardly fantasy land right now to look at all the factors of this season right now and think…..may be trouble ahead.
 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Grant said:

Sorry but I'm not sure I agree with a few points on this. 

For one the ten year plan I find hard to grasp, for one unless I've missed it where is this 10 year plan and what points do we have at various points to measure it's success? And where are we in relation to it? 

I don't understand how realistic talk of relegation is a knee jerk reaction either, this league has always been tight. Even when we were fourth we weren't a million miles away from the relegation playoffs (might even have been closer to 9th than 3rd?). As well as that a few weeks ago it seemed like the injuries were clearing up, going into that Arbroath game we thought we were nearly there with regards to the squad with Bene due back very soon. 

However since that Arbroath games we've lost Todd, McCann, Breen, Otoo, Comrie, Bene, McCann and Jakubaik. While Hamilton, Wighton and Summers are playing with injuries, the results and performances have reflected that. It's not reactionary to be worrying about relegation when you can't field 11 fit senior players and you're only 6 points away from it. 

You've both taken what I said a wee bit too literally. I meant it's knee jerk to suggest we are in a relegation battle. we're not. There's plenty points to play for, and even though we've no wins in 5, with a wee bit luck the picture would have been very different. So I'd disagree that our performances have been generally awful. Only Arbroath and Queens in that time have been truly awful, with both having mitigating circumstance, with Queens being exceptionally so.

It's been small margins that have put us where we are (injuries notwithstanding) rather than being utterly Peter Grant/Yogi atrocious week after week. That's why it's knee jerk. 

If we were in February with these injuries and this squad, I'd agree we have a major issue. As it stands, it's early January and we can do something about it. So there is still time. 

I just don't understand the mindset of saying talk of relegation whilst being in the playoff spot is realistic, that's a ridiculously negative way of looking at things, even if it is arithmetically possible. 

Everyone is different, either glass half full or glass half empty. If you are involved in the running of a team, which I have been for most of my life, you tend to be half full, as you can't afford to be anything else. As soon as you start thinking negatively, you're doomed. That's why I think the way I do. It's not blind optimism, it's keeping a positive mindset to enable change which I'm sure the manager and his staff and the players are doing to believe they can turn things round, or they'd be as well giving up now.

I do get why people are saying what they are, but as I said, until recently, even if we didn't get a result, the performances, even with a depleted squad which we've had all season, haven't been terrible. There is hope if we can get bodies in.

On the ten year plan, they've said this all along, multiple times, that that's what they are doing. I've mentioned it in at least two of the fan meeting updates I've done, as they said it at the time. They've also said they have had to readjust some aspects of given the relegation and the issues we've had (now resolved) with the Civil Service grounds. They have been crystal clear from day one that they wouldn't chuck money at the team and try and buy success. That's not what the investment is about, it's about building a club.

It's a key distinction that these matters are separate from the day to day running of the football club at the moment. They will have an impact absolutely, but the real impact and key drivers for this are long term. As I said, day to day team matters and this plan for the club as a whole are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to do one or the other.

It also doesn't mean there is no money available, both Cook and McPake have confirmed every window that there has been money available. That doesn't mean we chuck daft money at players if we don't think they are worth it just to get them in (Wotherspoon). Managing the budget and club responsibly is surely the way forward. 

 

[da_no_1]

It could be argued that we don't need to build a club. We already are a decent sized club with support base to boot. 

[Digs]

Just now, da_no_1 said:

It could be argued that we don't need to build a club. We already are a decent sized club with support base to boot. 

You could but it could easily be argued against. That is only one part of it, and again, that's a very literal interpretation of what I said.

For us to be the club we'd all love to be, with a great youth system from a decent academy, producing players for the first team, seeing them do well in turn helping the team, and even selling them on for profit. We need a decent training facility. We have been training at public pitches, high schools and rugby clubs, spending a fortune on pitch and facility hire in the process, with very little to show for our money, which is A LOT by the way. 

It's not just about having a nice flat pitch for the first team to train on, but is obviously a benefit though, it's about all of the players from youth to 1st team, and womens team having a central hub. That environment, which includes not only training, catering and educational facilities eventually is really important for breeding not only individual players, but strong teams, and an ethos of how those teams should play and how individual players carry themselves. It can't be underestimated how influential it is for a young player to be around good senior pros. 

[da_no_1]

22 minutes ago, Digs said:

You could but it could easily be argued against. That is only one part of it, and again, that's a very literal interpretation of what I said.

I know, I was just being a dick. Apologies.

It's just a really frustrating period for the club just now. 21/22 was grim and there was so much re-built during 22/23 - we really did look like a club again. It feels a million miles away just now.

[Yorkiepar]

Digs, I’m 100% with you on everything you say. We are in a totally different situation to the Grant/Hughes debacle season - thank heavens: yes, we’re struggling at the moment for very obvious reasons but McPake and his team appear to be level-headed sorts and I’m confident that he’ll navigate us out of this crisis.
I’m also completely on board with the Board’s longer term vision for the Club. Of course we’d all love to be top of the league, naturally moving on next year to winning the Scottish Premiership, but those of us who have been around for a while know that no sustainable footballing model is created this way. At least, not at our level.

[Digs]

16 minutes ago, da_no_1 said:

I know, I was just being a dick. Apologies.

It's just a really frustrating period for the club just now. 21/22 was grim and there was so much re-built during 22/23 - we really did look like a club again. It feels a million miles away just now.

To be fair though, all of it this season is down to injuries. Had we had a full squad or near enough all season, we wouldn't be where we are, which I still contend, isn't as bad as folk are making out. Everyone just needs to relax a bit.

[da_no_1]

I'd feel a lot more relaxed if there was any indication that our injury worries were improving. It appears they're getting worse. That's why folk are venting online etc.

I admit I'd be far more worried if we turned in a performance like Friday night with a full squad, this squad when fit has competed really well in the vast majority of our games.

[Digs]

2 minutes ago, da_no_1 said:

I'd feel a lot more relaxed if there was any indication that our injury worries were improving. It appears they're getting worse. That's why folk are venting online etc.

I admit I'd be far more worried if we turned in a performance like Friday night with a full squad, this squad when fit has competed really well in the vast majority of our games.

That is a concern to be fair, and I don't know the answer to that. On the face of it, there's something not right, but I'm pretty sure they won't just be sitting there scratching their heads bemoaning their bad luck. They'll be looking at load, individual and collective, individual rehab, warm ups/cool downs, the type of training they are doing and in what order with a view to working out whether it is something they are doing at training causing it, or it really is just bad luck. This is what the Sports Scientist is paid for and I'd be amazed if this hasn't been continually reviewed.

[parsforlife]

20 hours ago, Grant said:

Part of us being sustainable is surely being a top four championship club at the least? We lost a fortune being in league one last season. If these injuries continue to pile up there's every chance it happens again. 

 

5 hours ago, Digs said:

If we were in February with these injuries and this squad, I'd agree we have a major issue. As it stands, it's early January and we can do something about it. So there is still time. 

 

 

I think your being a bit harsh of grant here TBH.  If we take these 2 statements it looks like you were already in agreement.  He never said 'the whole squad is pish and we're doomed to relegation' He just mentioned that if we don't add to the squad relegation was a risk,  Risks are part of life and need to be accepted and mitigated against where possible, that doesn't mean that by acknowledging risk that you are giving up on seeking higher goals.

4 hours ago, Digs said:

 

For us to be the club we'd all love to be, with a great youth system from a decent academy, producing players for the first team, seeing them do well in turn helping the team, and even selling them on for profit

These things are nice and all. But ONLY if they result in us succeeding better at a first team level.  I agree they are likely to be beneficial towards that, but they are not a success on their own.  

[Eastendtales]

Our youth setup has for too long been utterly mince. Good to see that it's been given proper attention. 

[Digs]

29 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

I think your being a bit harsh of grant here TBH.  If we take these 2 statements it looks like you were already in agreement.  He never said 'the whole squad is pish and we're doomed to relegation' He just mentioned that if we don't add to the squad relegation was a risk,  Risks are part of life and need to be accepted and mitigated against where possible, that doesn't mean that by acknowledging risk that you are giving up on seeking higher goals.

These things are nice and all. But ONLY if they result in us succeeding better at a first team level.  I agree they are likely to be beneficial towards that, but they are not a success on their own.  

I don't think it was harsh, it's ifs and buts, and taking the worst viewpoint. It's relevant, absolutely but I think, personally, that this automatically means we are in a relegation battle, when we have things like games, and a transfer window on our side to mitigate them.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your last point. I'd have thought that was obvious. It's not a risk to try and improve your infrastructure, and it may not come with guarantees, but our club will be in a better place with it in place rather than without. What is a risk, is putting that to one side, in order to concentrate on reaching the top division, which clearly implies spending that money put aside for it by adding it to the playing budget which is never going to happen, because as I say, they have clear plans to do both. That is what the initial post I responded to was suggesting. Even if it did happen, there is lots of evidence to prove that that definitely wouldn't guarantee success.

[Grant]

5 hours ago, Digs said:

To be fair though, all of it this season is down to injuries. Had we had a full squad or near enough all season, we wouldn't be where we are, which I still contend, isn't as bad as folk are making out. Everyone just needs to relax a bit.

Wee bit of "If yer aunty had baws" about that though, while I agree you need to appreciate the situation you're in, which is that we are struggling to put out eleven fit senior players. 

5 hours ago, Digs said:

You could but it could easily be argued against. That is only one part of it, and again, that's a very literal interpretation of what I said.

For us to be the club we'd all love to be, with a great youth system from a decent academy, producing players for the first team, seeing them do well in turn helping the team, and even selling them on for profit. We need a decent training facility. We have been training at public pitches, high schools and rugby clubs, spending a fortune on pitch and facility hire in the process, with very little to show for our money, which is A LOT by the way. 

It's not just about having a nice flat pitch for the first team to train on, but is obviously a benefit though, it's about all of the players from youth to 1st team, and womens team having a central hub. That environment, which includes not only training, catering and educational facilities eventually is really important for breeding not only individual players, but strong teams, and an ethos of how those teams should play and how individual players carry themselves. It can't be underestimated how influential it is for a young player to be around good senior pros. 

I'm fully behind having a first team training ground, but if I'm being brutally honest I couldn't give the slightest damn where the players come from. I feel that the significance of fans wanting to see homegrown players is vastly overstated, fans want to see good players. 

How many clubs at our level, which is the second tier of Scottish football have had a productive academy which has then in turned led to promotion? Falkirk had a fantastic academy, sold players every year. Didn't get promoted 

Livingston had a similarly fantastic youth academy around the 2010s, ended up ditching it and got promoted. 

On the flip side Raith Rovers are currently top and have shied away from establishing a youth academy while they're in this league because it isn't financially viable, when I lived down in England Brentford ditched there academy because it was pointless. 

Having a base for the first team is important, attracting youth talent and selling it on? I remain to be convinced that can be done well as a championship club. 

6 hours ago, Digs said:

 

You've both taken what I said a wee bit too literally. I meant it's knee jerk to suggest we are in a relegation battle. we're not. There's plenty points to play for, and even though we've no wins in 5, with a wee bit luck the picture would have been very different. So I'd disagree that our performances have been generally awful. Only Arbroath and Queens in that time have been truly awful, with both having mitigating circumstance, with Queens being exceptionally so.

It's been small margins that have put us where we are (injuries notwithstanding) rather than being utterly Peter Grant/Yogi atrocious week after week. That's why it's knee jerk. 

If we were in February with these injuries and this squad, I'd agree we have a major issue. As it stands, it's early January and we can do something about it. So there is still time. 

I just don't understand the mindset of saying talk of relegation whilst being in the playoff spot is realistic, that's a ridiculously negative way of looking at things, even if it is arithmetically possible. 

Everyone is different, either glass half full or glass half empty. If you are involved in the running of a team, which I have been for most of my life, you tend to be half full, as you can't afford to be anything else. As soon as you start thinking negatively, you're doomed. That's why I think the way I do. It's not blind optimism, it's keeping a positive mindset to enable change which I'm sure the manager and his staff and the players are doing to believe they can turn things round, or they'd be as well giving up now.

I do get why people are saying what they are, but as I said, until recently, even if we didn't get a result, the performances, even with a depleted squad which we've had all season, haven't been terrible. There is hope if we can get bodies in.

On the ten year plan, they've said this all along, multiple times, that that's what they are doing. I've mentioned it in at least two of the fan meeting updates I've done, as they said it at the time. They've also said they have had to readjust some aspects of given the relegation and the issues we've had (now resolved) with the Civil Service grounds. They have been crystal clear from day one that they wouldn't chuck money at the team and try and buy success. That's not what the investment is about, it's about building a club.

It's a key distinction that these matters are separate from the day to day running of the football club at the moment. They will have an impact absolutely, but the real impact and key drivers for this are long term. As I said, day to day team matters and this plan for the club as a whole are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to do one or the other.

It also doesn't mean there is no money available, both Cook and McPake have confirmed every window that there has been money available. That doesn't mean we chuck daft money at players if we don't think they are worth it just to get them in (Wotherspoon). Managing the budget and club responsibly is surely the way forward. 

 

We're not currently in a relegation battle, if we carry on this trajectory then there's absolutely a danger we will be. While you keep saying we've got games on our side I'd say it's the opposite, if we were six clear with only a few games left I doubt anyone would be looking over there shoulder. As it is we've got a crippling injury list that unless it clears, or we get re inforcements we will soon be in a relegation battle. 

If another post on here is to be beleived we'll have a full bench of u18s on Saturday, a loss to an Airdrie side in good form in those circumstances wouldn't be surprising and would almost be expected. If that comes to pass and we're 7 points off the promotion playoffs, and closer to the relegation ones, still with a crippling injury list are you then starting to worry about the possibility of a relegation battle?

And while I'd agree that performances haven't been terrible week in week out, I'd also stop well short of calling them good. There was a poster on here who said he wasn't going to Ayr to watch more turgid football, and who can blame him? 

We have to deal with the situation we're in now. And if things don't improve soon with regards to player availability then we'll absolutely be worrying about the relegation spots before long.